Merchant bankers start disclosing IPO track-record

In one of the first such disclosures, Edelweiss, Citi and Morgan Stanley-the three bankers of the upcoming IPO of MCX-have made public the details of the IPOs managed by them in the past. Earlier this year, SEBI made it mandatory for the merchant bankers to make public the track record of the previous offers managed by them and share the same with the prospective investors of any new IPO being handled by them

New Delhi: In a move that could help investors take an informed decision on Initial Public Offers (IPOs), merchant bankers have begun disclosing the track record of IPOs managed by them earlier, reports PTI.

In one of the first such disclosures, Edelweiss, Citi and Morgan Stanley-the three bankers of the upcoming IPO of the country's largest commodity bourse MCX-have made public the details of the IPOs managed by them in the past.

The track-record details have been provided in the final IPO document of MCX, which will hit the market on 2nd February and would close on 24th February, as also on the websites of the three merchant bankers, acting as book-running lead managers (BRLMs) of the upcoming public offer.

As per the track record disclosure, Morgan Stanley handled five IPOs in 2009-10 and four in 2010-11. Out of these, six IPOs traded at a premium on the listing day, while three traded at a discount.

Further, three IPOs traded at a discount as on the 30th day of the listing, while six traded with a premium. Morgan Stanley has not managed a single other IPO so far in 2011-12.

The other banker, Citi, has handled three IPOs in 2009-10, two in 2010-11 and one so far in 2011-12. Out of these, two IPOs traded with a discount on the listing date and four traded with premium on that day.

However, four IPOs managed by Citi traded at a discount on the 30th day of listing, as against two with a premium.

The third banker Edelweiss managed two IPOs in 2009-10 and six in 2010-11. Out of them, two traded with a discount and six with a premium on the listing date.

On the 30th day of listing, one traded with a discount and four others with a premium.

The bankers have also provided detailed information for individual IPOs handled by them, including their size, listing price and their comparison to the movement in benchmark indices for different periods.

Earlier this year, Securities and Exchange Board of India (SEBI) made it mandatory for the merchant bankers to make public the track record of the previous offers managed by them and share the same with the prospective investors of any new IPO being handled by them.

Besides being the first IPO to provide such disclosures, MCX's public offer would also make it the first exchange in the country to get listed and probably the first IPO of 2012 in the Indian capital market.

The IPO has also been assigned top-most '5/5' IPO grade, indicating strong fundamentals of the public offer.

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Share transfer among promoters amounts to equity sale: SEBI

SEBI has said that any transfer of shares even within the promoter group of a company would be considered as an equity sale, when it comes to promoters getting a preferential treatment for allotment of fresh shares or warrants

New Delhi: Capital market regulator, Securities and Exchange Board of India (SEBI) has said that any transfer of shares even within the promoter group of a company would be considered as an equity sale, when it comes to promoters getting a preferential treatment for allotment of fresh shares or warrants, reports PTI.

Accordingly, the promoters of a listed company would not be eligible for preferential allotment of shares or warrants, if there has been any inter-se transfer of shares among the promoter group firms in last six months, SEBI said.

The regulations bar any entity from being allotted shares on preferential basis, if it has sold the shares of the same company in last six months.

SEBI has made its stance clear in this regard in an informal guidance sought by pharma company Strides Arcolab.

Strides Arcolab was seeking to issue convertible warrants to its promoter group. However, the promoter group entities of the company had executed certain 'inter-se transfer of shares', although the same did not lead to any change in its total promoter holding.

The company had sought SEBI's guidance on whether the inter-se transfer would be considered as 'sale', as per the SEBI's Issue of Capital and Disclosure Requirements (ICDR) regulations, which make the promoters ineligible to subscribe to preferential allotment within six months.

SEBI in its reply has told the company that all the promoters and promoter group entities become ineligible for allotment of shares on preferential basis, if any person belonging to promoters or the promoter group has sold shares during the last six months.

SEBI further said that the relevant regulations do not "differentiate between inter-se transfers made to entities within promoter group and sales made to others."

"Hence, the term 'any person who has sold any equity shares of the issuer' shall also include any person who has made inter-se transfers within the promoter group.

"Thus, as per the extant regulations, if there is any inter-se transfer among the promoter group entities in the preceding six months, then all the persons/entities forming part of 'promoter(s) and promoter group' shall become ineligible for allotment of specified securities on preferential basis," SEBI noted.

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Killing of Indian seafarers in cold blood off Kerala—the colonials strike again! (Part 3)

“Thanks to the government’s attitude towards the whole episode, there appears to be a huge cover-up underway when by right the two captains of Enrica Lexie along with the six armed mercenaries and the watch-keeping officer, who happened to be an Indian national chief officer, should have been hauled away for obstructing justice and attempting to flee the scene of a crime as well as destroying evidence. Shame on us as a country for watching on while the colonials strike again”

If I have said this before, I need to say it again—as an ex-seafarer, it is totally impossible for me to understand how the master and crew of a huge ship riding high in ballast assumed that a small fishing boat passing astern operating at half their speed was a threat of any sort. After that, to shoot at them like hunting for target practice. And then to abandon human beings in the middle of the ocean after shooting at them is worse than criminal. Even navies of countries at war pick up the injured and wounded from enemy ships. We ourselves have been trained not to even think of leaving stowaways or “boat people” at sea, and this is our DNA.

The St. Antony/Enrica Lexie episode is pure arrogance on the part of the two Italian captains on board this ship, the six mercenaries and 22 other crew members, a total of 30, and at least the 19 Indians onboard could have raised a protest. Instead, thanks to the government’s attitude towards the whole episode, there appears to be a huge cover-up underway when by rights the two captains of Enrica Lexie along with the six armed mercenaries and the watch-keeping officer, who happened to be an Indian national chief officer, should have been hauled away  for obstructing justice and attempting to flee the scene of a crime as well as destroying evidence. Shame on us as a country for watching on while the colonials strike again. And again.

# The St Antony is not by any long shot anything like a pirate craft. It has its name painted in huge letters on both sides. The maximum speed it can do is about 8 knots, half that of the ship in question. Fishing signals are displayed; Kerala boats are amongst the better marked ones in the Arabian Sea as any seafarer can vouch for. Waiting for a huge ship to go past and then proceeding from astern is not by any chance a piracy practice. And most of all, even assuming the Enrica Lexie did not wish to take evasive action, the chances of anybody boarding such a huge ship in ballast riding high, are next to impossible. Readers will see photos of the gangway and its angle and the relative size of people on deck to get an idea. Even climbing up

the gangway of a ship of this size in ballast is strenuous—here there was no gangway out at that time, just smooth shipside.

# There are unexplained lags in the timeline as they emerge, as gathered from different sources, all of which cannot be revealed. But the wonders of modern communications... all times IST on Wednesday 15 February 2012, and this is what probably happened, as one connects the dots:

1500-1600: Radar plots of fishing vessel closing in and crossing from port bow. Vessel variously between 9 and 14 miles from the Indian coast. At this juncture itself, the Enrica Lexie could have raised an alarm as per BMP3 or BMP4, sought Indian Coast Guard help, and altered course to port, towards the sea, well away from the threat if any.

Instead, she flashed lights—what was the St. Antony supposed to do? She was heading home. (Why the Enrica Lexie was so close to the coast itself is yet to be explained properly, but the standard reason—mobile phone—applies) Watches were doubled and an alert sounded onboard. It is at this juncture itself that Enrica Lexie should have sent out a piracy alert. It did not. And it should have started video-taping the complete episode.

1600-1615: Fishing vessel stops for the ship. Is plotted to pass safely astern. It is a known practice worldwide that fishermen will pass close to the wake of a ship to catch more fish from the deep excited by the churn which come up to the surface. Guards on stand-by displaying weapons. Fishermen wave at ship. Again a standard practice globally. Please understand this—the fishermen are looking up, into the setting sun, the mercenaries and sailors have a better field of vision, looking down on the fishing boat. The guards using sniper weapons shoot at the boats and the fishermen on board. It appears that there was a video recording of this whole episode on Enrica Lexie by crew on the poop deck, and this video has not yet surfaced.

1615-1815: Enrica Lexie does what is known as “shoot and scoot”, to place as much distance between itself and the Indian coast. The engine log shows that it places maximum power on the main engine. It is during this period of time that she apparently gets instructions from her offices in Monaco and Mumbai to change destination from Fujairah (UAE) to Port Suez/Port Said (Egypt). The mercantile marine authorities in Mumbai and Kochi are aware of this episode by about 1715 hrs, but do nothing about it, since one report has it that all the fishermen suspected to be pirates have been killed. It is only when the St Antony survivors get within mobile phone range that the word is passed from the fishing boat to the police, and thence to the Coast Guard and then to the Indian Navy.

1815 hrs: by now, the Enrico Lexie learns that it is being tracked, buzz is up on the marine communication channels, and sends out a belated report at about 1820 hours to the authorities in Europe on the alleged piracy attack. Meanwhile, the Coast Guard aircraft is now overhead, and there is enough cross traffic on the radio about Indian Navy coming closer. There is some panic with the Indian deck officers, who know that they will have to come home to face the music, some day.

As a result, Enrico Lexie turns around towards Kochi, but not because the Italians wanted to. One totally unconfirmed report has it that some of the crew and engineers threatened the Italians that they would stop the engines—it is not difficult to believe this.

# All weapons onboard should have been accounted for, placed in customs bond, and then deposited for the duration of the vessel’s stay or during investigations in the relevant armouries ashore. It seems that has not been done as yet. Why this has not been done as yet is not known, and changes the complete disposition, as the ship is no longer governed by freedom of the seas or rights of innocent passage.

With arms and armed men on board, this ship is an aggressor, and the days of gunboat diplomacy on the Malabar Coast are long gone. Whether the crew surrenders or not, the arms on board need to be handed over, and like yesterday.

# There happen to be 19 Indian seafarers on board, serving on Indian CDCs, passports, certificates and documents, including articles of agreement, under contracts signed through Indian companies responsible to the Directorate General (DG) of Shipping and shipping master. One of them, or more, was on watch when this incident happened. They are all witnesses. They can and should have been given a simple order by the shipping master in Mumbai and Kochi by now to prepare to disembark and offer themselves to Indian laws and procedures. This has not been done—instead, it appears that the company, Scorpio Ship Management of Mumbai, had instructed them to not say anything at the risk of their jobs and certificates. There is a veiled threat from the DG Shipping out on this, also, it seems.

# And finally, it is an old and known procedure—ships which are in territorial waters and do not co-operate can have their sea-suctions, outlets and valves blocked from outside. This will ensure generator shut-down in minutes, as there will be no more cooling water, and then the ship will be ‘dead’ for all electrical and engineering purposes. Within hours, batteries will run out, food will go bad, fresh water will not reach the taps, and there will be a total surrender. This is the logical and practical way to handle un-cooperative ships, as is done worldwide, even the threat is enough. An un-cooperative alien has no rights, period.

# Compare this with the way people travelling to other so-called ‘developed’ countries are treated before they enter through immigration. They are most certainly not provided consular or legal access while their official position in the country is that of un-entered aliens. In this case, it appears as though on one side the Italians don’t want to recognise Indian law but on the other, they want the protection of Indian law.

One is certainly not advocating the criminalisation of seafarers. Nor is one talking about quid-pro-quo—though there are enough episodes where Indian seafarers have been thrown into jail and as a simple matter of fact I can produce a good friend and colleague who has spent months in a dank, damp and cold Italian jail for no fault of his other than the fact that he was master on a ship which was arrested by the Italian authorities because another ship of his company had defaulted in the past. (And when he came back, his career was ruined, as was his mental, emotional and physical life, plus the Indian maritime and other authorities treated him like a criminal. Welcome to the real world.)

All I am saying is that once the ship was officially entered in Indian waters, what was needed was for a sub-inspector of police accompanied by the typical usual boarding team of customs and immigration inspectors, to take the ship and crew on board in their charge and if required, custody. Failure of co-operation from the ship, next step, with the help of the marine department of the port authority, black-out the ship by the methods mentioned above and wait for the captain to come to his knees, and add the obstruction of justice to the charges. Last resort—use force. Frankly, ‘they’ would have beaten the s___ out of us, if it had been an Indian or other developing country ship which had behaved like this, and ‘they’ know it.

Instead, what we appear to have is an escalation of the issue to levels unprecedented, with the seniors in the ministries and even the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) taking charge. The question of consular or legal access, to the best of my knowledge, takes place once the person is in custody. Here that is not the case.

Despite all the above, fact also remains that errors of judgement due to fear or any other reason, will and have occurred in this case. Another of this company’s ships, the Savina Caylynm was released from pirate custody after over 10 months, and it must have been playing on the minds of all onboard, that's also accepted.

But, why shoot and scoot, and then try to destroy evidence? There, something very interesting emerges—apparently, the chain of command between the master/captain and the armed mercenaries was not established on this ship and clearly and set out. Typically, it is the duty officer and the captain who will decide when issues are to be escalated to armed interventions, and only then will the guards proceed—that is in theory.

In reality, and I have enough feedback on this subject, the guards on board, because they are physically tough and have weapons, take the upper hand and aggravate the situation. Add to that the racially charged situation on this ship as has been hinted at, the lack of effective single command due to having two captains onboard, and the attitude that India is a country where anything including human life has a small price—and you have a terrible tragedy. In addition, when the armed mercenaries are from a military, then their chain of command is to their own seniors, and with them, the orders are simple—shoot to kill.

Solutions will emerge from this episode, sure, but messages also have to be sent out. There is no way this should be submerged in diplomatic niceties, economic pressure or loose talk about ‘compensation’. This is beyond all that. If we want to send the right message out to the world, then a sub-inspector of police needs to go on board and take charge of Enrico Lexie, and then let due process of law begin.

Once that is done, we can talk about the changes needed, and improvements desired. Otherwise, for every such murder on our coasts by foreign ships and their armed guards, let us be resigned to a situation where the colonials ensure that we ask the PMO to intervene, in something that a sub-inspector should have done. 

Somewhere in the rest of the world, they are laughing their sides out at this economic superpower. And it is not just the family of the two fishermen who weep in India.

And somewhere else, the owners of the ship are probably realising that their best interests lie in getting the ship out and free, as soon as possible, while the crew takes the can. That, also, is reality, as we shall soon see the crew of Enrica Lexie head for the long arm of the law.

You may also want to read...

(Veeresh Malik started and sold a couple of companies, is now back to his first love—writing. He is also involved actively in helping small and midsize family-run businesses re-invent themselves. Mr Malik had a career in the Merchant Navy which he left in 1983, qualifications in ship-broking and chartering, a love for travel, and an active participation in print and electronic media as an alternate core competency, all these and more.)

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COMMENTS

Satnam Sarkar

5 years ago

Antonio, Tino, Giovanni,

Two Italian officers, Major Paolo Fratini and Major Luca Flebus, were allowed by the District Court as observers at the ballistic tests. Unlike your Consul, they had come with the necessary documents to prove who they were.
How come you now forget mentioning this and saying 'sorry' ? Or are you just repeating what happens in your Mafia-Vatican country. Also the VDR data has been deleted, or not preserved as it is required by law. Goodfellas, this is going to be a BIG EVIDENCE - because recovering data will not be a problem for our IT experts, and show your people killed and tried to flee before they were brought back like common murderers by the Indian Coastguard.

malq

5 years ago

Here's one report from the affidavit filed by the Indian Coast Guard. (Same Indian Coast Guard currently also assisting the COSTA ALLEGRA, engine breakdown in the same Indian Ocean/Arabian Sea, where they handle SAR and more):-

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_use...

""The ship Master told investigators that he was not in a position to order the Naval detachment as they were directly reporting to their Command centre at Rome, the Coast Guard affidavit said.""

""The vessel rather than making water wall around the ship, undertaking evasive manoeuvring and other recommended best management practises to dissuade suspected pirates, resorted to "indiscriminate" firing which should have been the last option, that too only in self defence.

"Unfortunately the trigger happy security guards did not adhere to laid down regulations/advisories on anti-piracy measures,"

+++

United Nations conventions?

Humbly submitted.

malq

5 years ago

Dear Gallus, Giovanni, Antonio, Tino, and others -

1) Has it occured to people that if the complete system in India was so bad and unacceptable, that the Italian ship could simply have stayed far far away, out of Indian waters? Once again, look at the best ocean route from Malacca Straits towards Red Sea for Suez (declared destination) and try to tell us why this ship was so close to the Indian coast anyways?

2) Some posters here have been providing their (unasked for) opinions and views on the Indian legal, investigative and political system. If anything, the complete system is geared to be more than fair to foreigners, but at the same time - within Indian law.

3) Historically, the tricks by the colonials have been the same - try to bring in an inferiority complex with the locals wherever they go. It doesn't work anymore - everybody knows everybody's weak points now. For example, the realities of Italian politics, how the Italian police is so heavily linked with the Mafia, the judiciary in Italy - all these are open domain.

4) Now we come to a variety of UN resolutions and UNCLOS and other international "laws" being quoted - this is not the correct place, but if required, a book or three can be written about Italy's lack of adherence to a variety of international laws, so where does that get Italy?

Please, understand one thing - a crime has been committed on Indian territory, an Indian fishing boat flying the Indian flag, two men have been murdered. The investigation has to continue, the suspects have to be investigated.

As of now, it appears that the Italian Consulate in India is unable even provide documents authorising it to petition on behalf of the shipowner - because it is not known if, behind the corporate veil, the owner is actually Italian or from some other country!!

In which case, my contention that the armed guards on board were/are mercenaries, starts getting borne out.

Please, dear ITALIAN friends, I suggest you do some more investigation in Italy - is the ownership of the ENRICA LEXIE really Italian, that Italian soldiers were legally provided onboard?

The relationship between "flag state" and "beneficiary ownership" as well as "port state" may please be looked into deeper, UN resolutions apply too,as well as conventions of armed soldiers...

Humbly submitted.

Gallus

5 years ago

Apart from the emotional reactions of other posters here, objectively the unexpected refusal to admit our two forensic experts to the ballistic tests deeply undermines the credibility of the whole investigation. The Italian foreign affairs minister expressed his worry for this lack of transparency, and irritation for the overturn of Italian pacts with the police and court. The large portion of our public waiting the tests to form an opinion is now broadly convinced that there is a plot, and our soldiers are innocents. Not a clever move by Indian authorities, if they didn't have something to hide.

From a broader perspective, it seems that in our Old Europe the rights of defense are better protected. If a forensic test cannot be witnessed by the defense experts could be invalidated by the court, under certain conditions.
As far as the press, we were surprised to find straightforward statements re. "Italian murderers" and so on. Here again there is a cultural difference: in many European countries journalistic codes of ethics state that journalists should refrain from referring to suspects as though their guilt is certain. For example, they use "suspect" or "defendant" when referring to the suspect, and use "alleged" when referring to the criminal activity that the suspect is accused of.
Moreover, publishing of the prosecution's case without proper defence argumentation may in practice constitute a "presumption of guilt", damaging the reputation of innocent suspects. The chronicles of the world are full of conspirations based on mistake-riddled investigation that overlooked many solid leads, on a reckless prosecution and a manipulated public opinion.

REPLY

Ashutosh Sheshabalaya

In Reply to Gallus 5 years ago

Gallus, again possible jumping of the gun. Due process in India is procedural, and the separation of powers a near-nightmare for anyone new to the business. I wonder if the media in Italy still gets it: it is not India but Kerala, and more specifically, its district/State authorities, which have the crucial locus standi, and that India has "nothing to hide".

Antonio

5 years ago

No Italian witnesses at today's balistic analyses ... because of the opposition of the Kerala police. That's Indian honesty and transparency, and the promise of collaboration. The police obtained the weapons by assuring the presence of our witnesses to the balistic tests, now they deny it and show their real face and bi-forked tongue. Go on, fabricate all your evidence, shoot our weapons and recover the bullets and put them in the boat ... One day the truth will be known, and this ignominious plot discovered. What a ridiculous joke!

REPLY

Tino

In Reply to Antonio 5 years ago

They were innocent, but they will be guilty. Evidence is ripe and ready; tomorrow the big surprise: the magic bullets flying horizontally after being shot vertically have also changed their caliber in the flight, until matching the Italian rifles. Wizardry of the mysterious India!

Giovanni

In Reply to Antonio 5 years ago

Antonio, I report here the words of a post found in the Times of India:
"The Indian police will prove what the Indian politicians want them to prove- simple.The Indian police can fake evidence to nail someone, tamper with evidence to confuse everybody,make evidence disappear if required!! They are masters in this game and will carry out the orders as required by their political masters and of course for a price."

Giovanni

5 years ago

Sir - the Italian leading newspaper Corriere della Sera published yesterday a photo of the fishing boat, currently under custody. In the picture the trajectories of the bullets appear horizontal, despite the Enrica L. deck being 40+ m higher than the small fishing boat, which would imply a more vertical trajectory. There are no holes in the fishing boat working deck, whereas the top cover is damaged. This again suggests a lateral attack. There are other considerations in the article, regarding the fact that the fishermen didn't identify the ship apart from the red hull and black flanks, found in most of the tankers, and the size of the holes, but the ballistic test will take care of that, hopefully.
Another newspaper speaks about frequent shootings between Sri Lankan and Indian fishermen, for the fishing areas control, which caused 500 hundred Indian victims so far. Other scenarios are then possible - I don't say true, neither probable, but possible. I'm sure that the Indian courts will clarify these doubts.

Can you give us in the meanwhile some hints from your sources about those info? I count on your courtesy.

Thank you in advance,
Giovanni

REPLY

malq

In Reply to Giovanni 5 years ago

Dear Giovanni, thank you for writing in.

1) The Indian/Sri Lankan fishing incidents take place in the waters between India and Sri Lanka, which are well South of Kollam/Quilon and/or Cochin/Kochi. I wish the Italian media would re-check with Indians in Italy atleast on basic issues first, please?

2) Ballistic tests are underway, but the lack of co-operation from the ship's complement is surprising, so that will impact.

3) Please also remember - there would be enough data from onboard the ship as well as testimony from others on the ship.

4) Finally there is electronic evidence too.

Interim, we all pray for the safety of the people onboard the COSTA ALLEGRA, and please appreciate, same Indian Navy is doing its best too, to help.

humbly submitted/VM

Giovanni

In Reply to malq 5 years ago

Malq,

Thank you for your quick answer. Re. the ballistic tests, unfortunately we learn that the two Italian ballistic experts will not be admitted to witness them, contrary to the initial court ruling.
This decision is not clever by any means, what harm can a simple witness do to the tests, and how many suspects will arise in our public opinion for the lack of control of this key evidence? Someone - not me - could suspect even that the police wants just to fire rounds from our own weapons and then "identify them". Is the forensic laboratory under the police control? If yes, the ballistic test is devoided of any objectivity, and hence value.

Now we have to rely entirely on the Kerala police for this key proof. Not a good move to appease public feelings in my opinion.

Regards,
Giovanni

malq

In Reply to Giovanni 5 years ago

Dear Giovanni, thank you for writing in, and I can only request you to read the Good Book.

Job-39:11

Ps 25:2

Ps 34:22

Ps 118:9

and

Heb 13:18

+++

Humbly submitted/VM

Gallus

5 years ago

Malq,

Few days ago you spoke about the Savina Caylyn hijacking by the Somalian pirates, involving Indian and Italian seafarers kidnapped for 11 months. You stated erroneously that the Italian authorities wanted to negotiate only for the Italian seamen, leaving the Indians in the hands of the pirates. I answered you that all of the seafarers were liberated in the end, Indians and Italians.
Now the true story surfaces:

1/ The pirates didn’t want to free the Indian seafarers for money, because India detains some Somalian pirates. The pirates wanted to exchange the Indian seamen against their comrades detained in Indian jails
2/ The Italian authorities ensured that the Indian seafarers were liberated first, by releasing from an helicopter only a portion of the multi-million ransom
3/ Once the Indian seafarers were free, the elicopter launched the second part of the ransom
4/ In the meanwhile our special forces, including probably Battaglione San Marco men, were monitoring the situation, ready to intervene in case of tricks by the pirates.

You will say that paying a ransom encourages piracy, but in this case – either this of the death of Italian and Indian seamen … Just for sake of precision.
Regards, Gallus.

REPLY

malq

In Reply to Gallus 5 years ago

Dear Gallus, so certainly, you are much more than a Chemical Engineer only!!

All the seafarers on the SAVINA CAYLYN, from the original crew, were liberated in the end. But there was much more to this than what you say here, and I am sorry, I will not reveal or endanger my sources as well as other seafarers by saying more.

I stand by what I said - at one stage, yes, the owners were negotiating only for the Italians on board as well as the ship and cargo. Eventually they came up with the rest of the money for the Indians from the SAVINA CAYLN too.

But were these the only seafarers onboard? And who all were left behind, and why?

Humbly submitted/VM

Gallus

In Reply to malq 5 years ago

Sir - don't underevaluate Italian Chemical Engineers!


Were there other people left behind? I don't know, I rely only on public news such as the one above, reported today in the Italian press.
At any rate I'm glad that also Indian seafarers were liberated, and if the owners didn't want to pay for them I'm glad as well that the Italian authorities did the right thing.

Regards,
Gallus

FZ

5 years ago

Dear malq,
Thank you for the replay. I agree with you : the picture is very sad, all over the world and not from yesterday. By the way conspiracies ARE carried on, sometimes successfully. As far as the reactions of the Italians on the Enrica Lexie affair, not all of them where charged up as you say. Maybe it was not the majority ( unfortunately the majority, as everywhere, too often stands with the main stream opinion and media and reacts as bulls, or simply don’t care ). Could they have done more ? It is not up to me to judge. Still I don’t think that the we – you approach is the winner. We have had that for too long. Just to mention, and as you probably know, some here in Italy sponsors it also about immigration ( not to mention religious faiths ). I don’t know about your country : I imagine is different but similar. Personally I am sick and tired of it. Sorry, I told you, it is just a personal ( but fortunately not an individual ) belief. So again best wishes to the good will Indian people.
( I will continue to follow your blog, but probably I will not participate any more, so you do not need to give me a replay. Thank you again for the corteuos attention. Best regards F.Z. ).

FZ

5 years ago

Dear Mr. Nagesh Kini FCA,
just for clarification. If your conclusion is that not Western powers ( Russia, China … : what else ? ) are clean of any charge I am sorry to say I don’t agree with you, for the simple reason that it is hardly believable. Maybe they have done less damages ( which I hardly believe : the Russian spoiled entire regions ), simply because they did lacked the same opportunities. I think it’s clear enough what I think of Western powers. I am not defending ( and by the way, attacking ) anybody. Power is corrupting everywhere. Simply I don’t like black and white pictures and above all I believe that an approach like : “ White men ( or Red or Black ) stand with me ! “, is a part ( and not a minor one ) of the very problem. Notice that here I am not arguing ; it’s a matter of personal beliefs. Best regards. F.Z

Nagesh Kini FCA

5 years ago

Thank you FZ for throwing light that dumping nuclear and chemical waste on Somalian shores has driven them to piracy.
It is sad that the Western powers are abusing their powers like bumping off the Italian journalist, some time back, an Indian entrepreneur was similarly done to death because his engineering product cut into their markets.
The charge that American and Scandinavian NGOs are into funding the anti-nuclear protests in Tamil Nadu comes as no surprise.

FZ

5 years ago

Dear malq, ( I imagine you are the author of the article, but this doesn’t make any real difference ) :
Thank you for the speedy acceptance of my request ( which apparently did not underwent to any scrutiny ), for the quick e-mal signaling the answer and for the content. I really appreciated. I confess I was not accustomed to this. I was sure that the matter of autopsy forbidden by religious motives was a fairy ( or rather ghost ) tale. The mother of the stupid and fanatic is always pregnant, as the saying goes, all over the world. May be this is the real problem of world overpopulation, if a joke is permitted on such circumstances. In fact I am really sad for the two poor guys, I mean the 2 fishermen and, don’t be surprised, even for the 2 Italian guys, ( even if I don’t like soldiers at all, especially commanders, mercenaries, private guards, special squads and the like ), which are the less responsible in the entire matter. ( I am reasoning in the assumption that they killed the 2 fishermen in an excess of auto defense, which is the more probable outcome of the matter, even if the solutions are still open. I don’t want to blame may countrymen either, before the legal truth is ascertained ).
I want to be clear. I don’t say so because I am an Italian, ( I would say the same if they were Indian or whatever ), I say so because the more that I read about the so called piracy, the more I discover a lot of dirt : huge interests, deployment of entire military fleets by tens of nations with careers, salaries etc., even construction of ships “optimized” for the purpose ( e.g. F125 German Frigates ), maneuvering of the entire issue “behind the scenes” for “political” and other reasons, big gains for respectable Insurance Companies, legal “counselors” and intermediates ( apparently based mainly in London ), “security agencies” and mercenaries, even development of specific technologies, and all this after the destruction and spoiling of an entire country ( I mean Somalia ), with pouring of nuclear and chemical waste on her shores ( a Italian female journalist was killed years ago for investigating on this ), predation of her natural sea resources, civil wars etc.. I will not be surprised if the “problem” of piracy will last for years with big gains and a few poor and derelict victims … It is a real big mess. I don’t know if I was able to explain myself : it is so difficult … ( but in a sense methinks also very clear even if apparently it is much easier to join the band and my Country etc. … ) Conclusion : my best greetings ( auguri ) to good will people all over the world. Hopefully they will be able to fix this big mess. Maybe it is a little rhetorical but I am convinced we desperately need them. I don’t’ see any other outcome. Best regards to you. F.Z.

REPLY

malq

In Reply to FZ 5 years ago

Dear FZ,

Thank you for writing in.

1) I dare say the fish in the ocean do not think very kindly of fishermen either. A lot about truth is the angle you look at things from.

2) The situation with piracy in the Indian Ocean economies is most certainly more complex than is made out and can not be restriced in analysis only on what is happening to ships.

3) Italy's historical and modern day role in the Horn of Africa is well known and to a large extent the people of the coast always have their own understanding of matters maritime. It is no secret about which Nations are stirring the pot, who is behind supplying arms and more in this region, and for the furtherance of which religion.

That is the sad truth. This is no conspiracy theory, and maybe instead of being charged up about this incident, the Italian people should ask their own Government - why does it appear as though Italian controlled ships are increasingly specifically targetted in the piracy waters?

Humbly submitted/vm

ps: Good reading on the subject - Purulia Arms Drop case . . .

FZ

5 years ago

I am an Italian reader searching for international comments on the recent, and unfortunate, incident of Enrica Lexia. I will be very obliged if someone could answer to me on the following issue. It is true that the autopsy is not allowed in the town of Kochi, and in general in the State of Kerala, for religious motives ? Even if it is legally allowed there is some resistance under this aspect ? It sounds very strange to me, ( in Italy we are accustomed to very strange things too ), so I rely on the fairness of the answer. I apologize for my English and thanks in advance. Best greetings. F.Z.

REPLY

malq

In Reply to FZ 5 years ago

One more point, dear FZ:- you may learn much more about legal and other aspects of life in Kerala from:-

http://krlcci.org/

KRLCCI (Kerala Region Latin Catholic Community Italy), is a National Organization of the Kerala Latin Catholics scattered all through Italy to get united under a single ecclesiastic entity on the pattern of the KRLCC. KRLCCI is headed by a National Coordinator, appointed by the Italian Bishops’ Conference at the recommendation of the KRLCBC, and a National Body, made up of a Spiritual Advisor and other 30 members who are chaplain(s), priests in charge of local communities, lay leaders and the representatives of priests, sisters and seminarians. The National Body has constituted an Executive Body to carry out the ordinary activities of the KRLCCI.

Via dei Cavalieri del S. Sepolcro,1
00193 ROMA

Fr. Antoney George Pattaparambil
Via della Pisana, 370, A3, INT. 7
00163 Roma, Italy
Tel. 0039-0666159049
Mobile. +39-3338984531 +39-3288772655
Email: [email protected]

malq

In Reply to FZ 5 years ago

Dear FZ, thank you for writing in.

1) Autopsies for medico-legal and other reasons are regularly conducted all over India, including in Kerala and if you do a simple internet search you will find plenty of reports on the subject.

2) The authorities have priority over religious objections, if any, for autopsies. Especially in cases like this which involve violent and unnatural death.

3) The results of an autopsy are case property and can eventually be sought under the Right to Information Act of India 2005. Or sought by due process of law. Obviously there are elements of privacy, but at the end of the day, this is information available in open domain for those who require it for legitimate reasons.

4) Medical jurisprudence is well developed in India.

I have no idea why there are all sorts of reports about the autopsy of the two people murdered in the Enrica Lexie / St Antony case, when all procedures are being followed. Delays to procedures, if any, are perceived as being due to the tactics of the Italians in India who are reportedly objecting to investigations at every step of the way.

We find the attitude of the Italian authorities very strange in India. After all, this is just one of hundreds of Italian ships, and this is just one of hundreds of ships arrested for various reasons all over the world. The Indians have a right to investigate crimes of this sort in waters under its jurisdiction.

Matter of fact, in a similar case, of the ship "Alondra Rainbow" (Japanese owned, Panama flag) in 1999, when the suspect ship was brought back from 300 miles off the coast for similar crimes, the world maritime community applauded India's action. For keeping the oceans safe.

For just a moment, please think - if the Italian armed men did kill the fishermen, were they not as human beings obliged to stop and at least assist them?

I hope, dear Italian reader FZ, that you will appreciate one more thing - Kerala is a very literate State with 100% literacy. Over 25% of the population are Christians. All sorts of tourists from all over the world come to what is also known as 'God's Own Country'. Kerala is not some banana republic jungle - in some ways, the links between Europe and India were strongest in Kerala. The Roman Catholic church is very strong in Kerala.

It hurts us very much when Europeans doubt our fairness in this whole episode. We are very proud of the long history and civilisation in Kerala, and many of the churches in Kerala can track the history of some of the Apostles as well as other early Christians, way back to early AD.

Kerala, for example, also finds mention as the State where Jewish people never suffered any form of problem.

To my judgement, it has been the arrogance of the Italian diplomats and commentators that has spoilt and vitiated the complete atmosphere, as well as impacted communications.

I hope this answer helps.

Humbly submitted/VM

saurabh

5 years ago

Punish the rascals and send a strong signal that we mean business.

Ashutosh Sheshabalaya

5 years ago

Re: Tehelka, VM needs to be blessed for persistence. All men great and small, the Lord God made us all.
Wonder why this Tehelka writer circumnavigates (a sailor, I guess) around the key issues. I, too, have given my two bits elsewhere on the issue of jurisdiction, contiguous zones and hot pursuit - and to another comment on outsourcing the Indian Navy - its nuclear and Kilo subs, Stealth frigates, water jet FACs and 6,700 tonne destroyers, even its soon to be 3 aircraft carriers and the famous Brahmos missiles, to Italy or China.
After all, even in a citadel of the Indian media like Tehelka, it is assumed that the Indian Navy could not have forced an 'involuntary' return of the Enrica Lexie within the remaining 165-185 nautical miles of the Indian EEZ. May not be far from the truth given the kind of people who run the show in Delhi today. Tehelka would know.

But to other serious issues swept aside by the writer:

1. Like due process in law, there are rules of engagement for operations using lethal force, just about everywhere. These seem to have been rushed through by the Italian shipowners federation and the Ministry of Defence, as part of Law 107 of October last year to enable Italian soldiers to guard Italian-flagged vessels, on the basis of the shipowner footing the bill (a questionable practice, already).
However, the Italy-specific rules of engagement are not a public document. Agreed, some parts have to be kept classified, to avoid pirates pre-empting their choices, but its basic parameters need to be known.
I also have it on good authority that it was assumed that India (along with countries like Seychelles and Djibouti and some other major powers) would have no objections to embarking and disembarking Italian commandos and their weapons out of Kochi, headquarters of Southern Naval Command, and home to one of India's biggest projects - its new aircraft carrier (in which, ironically, Italian defense companies are contractors).
Let us not hesitate to also accept that, given the coyness in India about arms possession (.32 peashooters and 50 rounds of ammo a year is the mantra) that the Italians have made a request to India, some clerk has filed it somewhere, and the Italian soldiers in custody had NO idea about Indian law on the carriage of arms.

2. But now that the feces has hit the ventilator, it remains to be determined: what exactly are these rules of engagement - and were they followed ?
Are the rules fair and equitable - enough to have extra-territorial application, as a generally accepted principle of international law ?
Do they take account of the principle of proportionate violence, graduated escalation, immediate and overwhelming threat etc. - all part and parcel of legitimate defense, even for using a handgun. Or does the good writer from Tehelka subscribe to the Make My Day law in Colorado. Works, it seems, but risky too.
Let us not rush to judgement. The Indian boat will have evidence of a lot of things. Bullets in the bow or stern - in other words, was the boat attacking or fleeing ? Or was it hit/strafed across its flanks ? What was the range ? Was there an escalation in the caliber of ammunition ? Was there any attempt to immobilise the boat with shots ?

3. Simple issue. The presumption of innocence should be on everybody - the Italian soldiers, but the Indian fishermen/pirates, too.
Do the Rules of Engagement provide for 'cultural' issues - such as tired fishermen waving their hands and shouting to be heard. Every student of anthropology knows that 'suspicious' behaviour in one context is benign in another. Some men in India hold hands. Get the picture. In Greece, showing your palm may get you slapped.
Animals have rights, too. Even in a pig or deer hunt, there are rules - many of them sometimes - covering lethal force.
Being hit with (possibly a .50 caliber round, and its 15,000 joules of ballistic energy) while you are resting after a hard day of fishing is not cricket.
So, Tehelka's laundry list of figures on pirate attacks is good mind-gaming. But it does not answer Question (1) - on rules of engagement, or (2) on whether these are legal and were followed.

4. In (2) above, I mention legitimate defense. This is a basic principle of order, law and order, international order, and I am not going to go quote Hegel.
So, rights of self-defence also have responsibilities, and anyone in the business of using a firearm knows/has to know the immense responsibility it entails, even against an animal.
One can extend the Tehelka writer's analogy a little bit. Shipping is dangerous because of Somali piracy, and it threatens global commerce. Wow. Next we shall see him pitching to become Director General of the WTO.
But what he oh-so-delicately misses is the concomitant issue of responsibilities.
Should every big vessel in the Indian Ocean believe it okay to strafe suspicious looking boats, it will become a bit like trucks on the Delhi-Jaipur road at night. Not good for international commerce either. Not good at all. Or (no offense here) for Italian makers of recreational boats - especially power cruisers and RIBs - who see India as a huge opportunity. And given the low autonomy of these things, 100-150 nautical miles, what is the chance of a Mumbai filmstar or tycoon's favorite son coming across an oil tanker near Mumbai ? Very high, of course.

5. Let us stretch this Tehelka argument a bit more. After the Delhi attack, what if the Israelis began to bump away every red (or black) motorcycle ?
Indeed, the issue is not that of the explosive risks in an empty crude tanker. It could have been carrying spent nuclear fuel, or dosas. The question is one of explaining the rules of engagement, seeing if they are followed and were adequate as well as legitimate. No extra-territoriality alone here. The principle that a law is not necessarily legal has been around since Nuremberg.

6. Some other assumptions by Tehelka are also questionable:
- There are several means being discussed to prevent boarding a ship, such as water cannons. Forget the elaborate stuff. Pressure washers of 5,000 psi coupled to waterjets of 15,000 psi or more can achieve dissuasion through to lethality at 10,000 USD for the former to 30,000 USD for the latter. These are paltry sums compared to the ransoms paid - or the lives lost. Operating a sufficient number at potential boarding points through vents via surveillance from the bridge will not require a rocket scientist.
Nor would TASER, or gas vents, beginning with dispersed CS and then extending to CR. I can already hear the rejoinder - what if the pirates begin to use gas masks ? Well, then shoot them, of course, at a good distance. The Browning M2s used by the San Marco, for example, have an effective range of 1.5 kilometers. Enough to spot gas masks, and kill.
- 24x7 shifts are a joke. (Oh, poor guards. Look how hard they have to work. So did the fishermen).
Onboard radar, nightime thermal imaging, wide area video surveillance with up to 120 fps resolution and 720 X 480 pixels - these are all commercial products. Monitoring from a distance is not science fiction.
- What remains to be seen is whether the Rules of Engagement mandate real time incident video recorders, and whether this has been used. Here again, lots of possibilities. Forget the hyper tech. Commercial baby monitoring systems provide very decent solutions up to 100 meters in daylight.

7. Agreed on the Tehelka writer's conclusion. Piracy must be stopped. However, encouraging vigilantism (sovereign or freelance) is not the way.

Regards,

malq

5 years ago

Dear Gallus,

Many thanks your many messages here.

I do think we should now let the law take its course. In and around India, that means Indian law, which is what stands. Any merchant vessel entering Indian waters accepts that, you may want to read up on the Maritime Zones Act of India 1976 and subsequent, as well as the Merchant Shipping Act of India, various aspects relevant to vessels entering India's EEZ and more.

The rest of your allegations, sadly, really do not deserve a response. My sincere apologies.

It was indeed very good hearing about your ancestors. We pray for them, as we do for everybody's ancestors.

rgds/VM

REPLY

Gallus

In Reply to malq 5 years ago

Dear malq - Thank you for the prayers for my ancestors - I'm sure that they are sincere, I appreciate.

Regarding the subject: I feel very uneasy, to say the least, when emotions are stirred and nationalism spurred - either side.

Regards,
Gallus

malq

In Reply to Gallus 5 years ago

Dear Gallus, what else can anybody say, since the beginning the Italian authorities and media say:-


# We warned them and then fired at them.
# We warned them and did not fire at them.
# It was another ship (OLYMPIC FLAIR)
# We were 30-40-50-60 miles away.
# Indian investigators / judiciary / navy / coast guard / government / etcetc are not competent or capabale or competent to handle the armed mercenaries.

Emotions and nationalism is not being stirred - please read who is monitoring and coordinating the COSTA ALLEGRA episode. Same indian Navy, same indians.

Please understand, this is cold simple truth, two Indians have been murdered. The suspects must face investigation and trial.

There are many Indians in Italian jails, there are surely many Italians in Indian jails, that's it. Truth is truth.

rgds/VM

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