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Killing of Indian seafarers in cold blood off Kerala—the case of the St Anthony and Enrica Lexie February 16, 2012 04:00 PM | Veeresh Malik Share this article:
I'm very disappetente... it looks like that politics is going to with over truth.. no matter who is right or wrong, is there any chance to know what did really happen??? Disgusted of both sides.
Are we expecting to have the results of the ballistic test anytime soon? We already know that the 7.62 mm bullets in the bodies and on the boat are not compatible with the 5.56 mm the Italians use... how much longer will you retain our soldiers illegally?
You "already know" about 7.62 mm. How ? Are you referring to the evidence produced by Il Sole, owned by the Confederation of Italian Industry ?
No doubt about the integrity of Luigi di Stefano and his tenacity (Ustica). But his expertise is in aviation and missiles. So there are some questions.
1. If the bullets are 7.62 mm (x 54), I would agree, in principle, with your (and Il Sole's) conclusions. However, before that, some questions:
- Why are Il Sole (and several other sources) referring to NATO caliber as exclusively 5.56 x 45? Other than to confuse. 7.62 x 51 is also a NATO caliber, and used in NATO e.g FN MAG and MG3 (Germany).
In fact, the 31 mm bullet length referred to by di Stefano corresponds exactly to 7.62x51 NATO, as it is called, not 7.62 x 39 Russian.
- Then,the Minimi also has a version in 7.62 x 51 NATO (the ammo is called Maximi).
2. Bullets from a high-velocity rifled barrel are deformed on impact by several factors, including yaw, nutation as well as precession and gyro drift. So before, talking of caliber, in potentially disputed cases, the circumference is not rarely SOP. So I think Signor di Stefano is WRONG in alleging that the Indian analysis of circumference is "credo sia la prima volta al mondo" (I leave the translation to you). For example, the famous .357 Magnum fires the same diameter bullet as the .38 Special. There are many more, not least .308 and 7.62 x 51 NATO itself (not identical but interchangeable, up to a point).
In the US, where gun crimes are investigated far more strenuously than India or Italy (for different reasons), a very recent manual on recovery of bullets, called 'Firearm/Toolmark Procedures Manual' stipulates "Determine the widths of one land and groove impression, multiply by the number of land and groove impressions to obtain the circumference." These land and groove width dimensions are SOP with the FBI (e.g GRC standards).
3. Finally, in a very small side note in the Il Sole piece, there is a reference to .50/13 mm, and a "criptico e furbesco" angle by the Indian expert wrongly called Sisikala. Let me refrain from allusions here on crypts and apocrypha, and their unique contexts. But, interestingly, while Il Sole mentions the .50, subsequent editions (e.g by blitzquotidiano) omit this reference. So where did .50 suddenly metamorphose into 7.62, uniquely, and then remain there ?
4. I have mentioned this before, but experts in India know that San Marco are equipped with .50 Browning M2s, and on naval deployments too. If they did not, many would question the wisdom of relying wholly on a Minimi for effective deterrence.
5. From the beginning, there has been an effort to confuse the legal case with politics and other factors (Third World compensation amounts, smells of piss, Sonia, by-elections, media pressure - Enrica is off the attention of the Indian media for two weeks, the competence of using "circumference" for the "first time in he world", satellite evidence (still unexplained). Does Italy own day-night, all-weather radar sats ? India does, and will soon launch a new, much larger one.
Each time an assumption went out of the window, in pops a new one. Now we hear about Sisikala's new frontiers.
5. If the evidence indicates the marines are innocent, they will be let off. If not, many would agree with you that their detention is illegal.
6. So wait and see what the ballistic results show, and also whether the VDR was or was not tampered with - a very serious issue, too.
7. Politically, there is a LOT Italy must learn from this incident and the IMO for the dangerously misleading info on piracy in the east Indian ocean, which led to much of this fracas.
I do not say the deafening silence from India helps, but you can see that no one there cares for Italy, or the UK (which gets snubbed routinely by India, on ministerial visits and much more).
So, explain to your politicians and media that next time - if they wish to avoid making a circus out of your San Marco people (above all, if they are innocent), they should do some homework on 'unilateral' laws (e.g on the absence of SOFA, non-declared rules of engagement, Master's authority over-ridden but to mysterious sources).
Serious columnists in Italy have alluded during the past few weeks to sending an Italian frigate to India. Since you are so committed to this, ask them to read up a bit on India and its Navy, maybe even little snippets on the Brahmos missile.
India also has its own idiots, or they will get these kinds of messages, soon enough.
Roberto1 month ago in reply to Ashutosh Sheshabalaya
Ashutosh,
you are so good to find good reference on the internet as you are to pull bullshits out of your ass, mixing things that nothing have to do with this case... and that is all you and other media have done so far on this case; il Sole 24 Ore is owned by Confidustria...and so what? It is the most respected media in Italy for his objectivity... As far as point 2, yes, bullets are deformed... that why ballistic experts exist... what is the problem? that the results are not coming out as you were expecting? How long is it going to take? 'cmon, you are just ridiculous.
So, India is launching a new big ass satellite... and so what? It is so important for you guys to prove how good you are? The frustration of being a colony is still so inside you that you need to prove to the entire world that? Let me tell you something... you are and you will always be a third world country, no matter what you do... it is in your culture, in every indian i meet, world wide... take care
Third World country ??
While the Italian Prime Minister is with a begging bowl in China for money but the Chinese are saying:
"Monti's labor reforms fail to impress some observers" China Post - ‎Mar 26, 2012‎.
Roberto, you racist shit, you speak Mandarin yet ? Learn quickly.
And remember, India will have to say okay to the Eurozone bailout which countries like yours need very, very urgently.
Bobby Boy,
Your industry confederation owns a paper. That is objective.
Your former Prime Minister owned half the TVs and some underage girls.
Veni Vidi Vici or whetever the hell you say. But don't come before you conquer.
From what I just read why are you so afraid with the truth. All that Mr. Ashutosh is saying is that your politicians passed a law that brought your army to India. Now do not piss us too much. The Indian Army, including some of my ancestors, beat the shit out of the Italian army at Tobruk and Montecassinni. But then you were a German colony. Still are.
Your new Prime Minister, Herr Monti, is appointed by Germany, right ?
Mr. Roberto,
You Italians are beginning to worry that YOUR shit is hitting the fan.
We have a saying Jub kutta zyada jor se bhookta .... but you will not understand. Panini is not pasta. It is the name of history's first grammarian.
Moderator, you should remove these personal attacks.
Roberto - you have what we call a loose trigga finga.
Please post your email ID and I shall send you links (including pictures) on where exactly the expertise on weapons resides in my ass, and has been used with more complexity than Il Sole's off-context one liners.
Or write directly, if you wish, to sheshabalaya@gmail.com
Mr Roberto- I have been reading your comments and it appears you get information "straight from the horses mouth".
Please let us know what was the list of arms & ammunation that were on board the ship on the fateful day- can this list be confirmed from the Customs as declared by the Masterat the ports of call before this incident.
(please do not say that such a list does not exist as they were military personnel).
There is a strong feeling that in the days before the guns were seized by the police, the used ones were disposed off and the given guns fired into the sea and shown as the fired guns to fox the authorities.
There is also a strong feeling that videoing was done by a few crew members but they have all been confiscated by the Captain/ guards.
Lastly why are the names of the 19 Indian crew members not being made public; as also the names of the personnel who were on Bridge watch duties from 1400/ 1700 hrs IST.
The truth will come out sooner than later.
As to your comments about India and Indians-let it be said that Italy is not a third world country but a basket case- bravado never takes anyone anywhere.When uoy point a finger remember four fingers point back at you.
You are too scared to even give your full name unlike Ashutosh &VM who are open.
Well, we don't want some Indian hacker to get into my computer right... it is too easy to piss all you off guys... and it was funny!
You are so stereotypical about what you know about Italy and Italians... that it is not even interesting anymore.
You are finding so many excuses for your inefficiency.... now the weapons have been disposed... video erased... indian crew retained... c'mon guys... if you want to made up stories you can talk about 9-11 conspiracy or the moon landing... you will have better chances...
Good morning - I think we need to have faith in the Indian legal system. As of now, the Italian government as well as the ship-owners and other entities do.
Roberto doesn't. Bad luck.
Being subject to various types of international law is part of an accepted risk when working on ships. Nobody forced those Italian mercenaries (now terrorists??) to work on a ship heading into Indian waters.
As for the rest, what can one say - though the news of the Italians wanting to send a frigate to India was amusing. Who will pay for the fuel?
"Being subject to various types of international law is part of an accepted risk when working on ships. Nobody forced those Italian mercenaries (now terrorists??) to work on a ship heading into Indian waters. "
Merceneries? Terrorists? How far are you planning to push this joke?
International laws includes militaries of a foreign country to be judged by their own country... take the US soldier that killed 17 people in Afghanistan... how would you call that? but he will be judged in the US, nevertheless... the truth is that you have no proof, no evidence, no nothing... just a report about a black and red boat that the police suggested to the fisherman was the Enrica Lexie. Your judge is under political pressure to find excuses to retain the soldiers further... now they are terrorists? So Italy i guess is a terrorist country... WOW... US should take care of Italy instead of Afghanistan.... don't you see how absurd you are?
Nobody has not even told be for what reason two italian soldiers should have open fire to fishermen... there is an interesting report that talks about facts... i will translate it for you... i have not seen one of the indian side yet, beside assumptions and racial words...
Dear Roberto,thank you once again for your kind words on the ENRICA LEXIE / St. ANTONY murders.
1) Please do not compare Afghanistan with India, as far as military activities are concerned, or anything else for that matter.
2) The ENRICA LEXIE is an Italian motor vessel, was supposed to be on innocent passage through Indian waters, and had on board armed personnel who killed Indians on an Indian motor vessel.
3) The crime took place on Indian territory. The accused, who could as easily be terrorists and/or mercenaries, are in Indian custody and now part of the Indian legal system.
4) At any given juncture, hundreds of Italian companies and thousands of Italians working in India, including in defence business, subscribe to the Indian legal system.
5) It is therefore no great thing if some armed mercenaries / terrorists or even thugs from the ENRICA LEXIE are in Indian jails.
Best wishes. But in this day and age, you will have to live with the Brave New World. if you feel that is racist, then what can I say?
1) ok, let's consider then the US aircraft involved in the Cermis accident in Italy... the pilots were judged by US
2)Considering that the boat was out of the 12 miles from the shore, it was in international waters; the judge is trying to extend that line to 24 miles, accusing the italian soldiers of terrorism... this is changing the rules, it is probably normal in India where no rules are really followed
3) see point 2; as i said, they are italian soldiers, as recognized also by India, as they keep their status, their uniforms and a separate location from ordinary criminals... as such... they are soldiers
4) agreed; i don't see your point; they are civilians, not soldiers on a mission in international waters
5) yes, there would be no problem if they were mercenaries/terrorists or civilians; unfortunately they are italian soldiers; as such their detection should be consider and it is consider a violation of international laws to which India also agreed too, but that looks someone decided not to take into consideration.
As such, I do maintain my position that India was, is and will be a third world country.
Dear Roberto - OK, noted, thanks, India is a 3rd World country and not worth Italy's time and effort.
Please ask your banks (11 of them at last count), your industry (all of it at last count), and all the other people selling "luxury" goods (Indian streets are full of people trying to flog Italian "luxury" brands) to withdraw from 3rd World India, for starters.
After that, please find out which is the biggest market in the world for FIAT (engines). Get them to withdraw from this 3rd world.
And finally, what was a grand Italian ship doing off the coast of this 3rd world? Please stay in your non-3rd world?
Good luck. Mare nostrum goodbye. Want to work the rest of the world, follow its laws too. And no more gunboat threats either.
Malq... as I said... you are just mudding the water with things that have nothing to do with this case... China is probably the biggest buyers of Ferrari... nevertheless they don't follow democratic rules and laws... India is no different... sure you are exporting low cost and quality brains in the world, i'm sure western companies comes to India for low cost workforces... but nevertheless, you are those still living the colony period as a disgrace; you reply with no answers to my points... just stereotypical sentences... you probably have nothing else to do... you learnt a latin word "mare nostrum"... great... what is the new word for today? A western country would have set a bi-party team with italian and indian militaries, not civilian, has we did with the american for the Cermis. There would have been efforts to find the truth, not to hide it. Our soldiers have been in indian prison for more than a month without a formal prove, trial, or judgement... is this how a civilized country operates? No, i don't think so... so keep finding your excuses... while the real responsible for the killing of the two fishermen are still free...
Now the news breaks that an Italian Helicopter company was openly offering 8-15 pct bribes to the MOD to sell their helicopters to the Indian Navy.
Maybe they should send the helicopters on the Frigate somebody suggested they send to get the two Msarine Sergeants out of jail.
Irony is it not
Yeah... the news is also on italian newspapers... what can i say... where there is a corrupted there is a corrupter... i'm just disgusted... it's all politics and nothing more... you're making a big deal for the two soldiers, but they are just soldiers... someone put them on that boat without clear orders or proper diplomatic protection, or clear instruction... i don't know... i don't think nobody really care who shoot who at this point...
Thanks for your comment. What has foxed me over the last 45 days is the Captain of the ship- every Merchant Navy Captain is the "final authority" on his ship when she is at sea,l but it appears that on Italian ships there is dual authority; one with the Captain and the other with "soldiers" of the Italian Army/Navy.
Where does one end and the other begin.
Does it mean that between 3 pm and 5 pm (or therabouts) the authority was with the two soldiers on duty(or the 6 on the ship)and after the shooting it went back to civilian control as the Captain got orders(?) to change course from Fujairah to Suez & he implemented it.Or did the soldiers instruct the vessel to do so at maximum speed.
It is easy to find out if on that fateful afternoon the Owners got a charter and the charter required the vessel to reach Suez faster than what her current speeed necessitating increase power to reeach the loading port.
I doubt it as Suez was 8/9 days away n the vessel had to traverse the "pirates den off Somalia" to get there.
Why is there stoic silence regarding the statements of each & every crew member.
This case is now in the public domain so why the silence on this- it is deafening.
Agreed... as i said... it is frustrating also on our side. As i said before, those two soldiers are professional, the best of the Italian Army, and i don't think they like to go around shooting to innocent people... so something must has happened there... the point is that, after 45, as you said, there is not a clear explanation yet.
Who was in charge on the boat? Who did order to open fire? Why there are no charges for the captain, but, nevertheless, the boat is still not allowed to leave India? If the soldiers are responsible the boat should be free... but if the captain (and the boat company) is responsible, than the soldier's position should be different... i think it is just a big mess... Italy and India are discussing about jurisdiction but nobody is bringing any prove, on one side or the other... it is such a simple question... did the soldiers shot or not? yet, there is no answer... unbelievable...
Dear Roberto - latest we learn is that so far nobody has been able to re-confirm who the actual beneficiary owners of the ship were/are (Are they really Italian??) and if they are not really Italian, then why/how were Italian soldiers onboard?
Assume a similar situation - a truck which is owned by, shall we say, some Albanians, is temporarily registered in Italy and is operating in, say, Croatia. Will the Italian Government put Italian soldiers onboard - especially if the cargo is not Italian, and the crew are also not mostly Italian?
Bigger question being asked is this - what happened to the VDR? And who is liable for the destruction of this vital evidence?
Further to my earlier comment, I trust many are aware of the case of Capt Glenn Aroza who together with the watchkeepers on duty on the bridge at the alleged time was kept under detention in Taiwan for over two years- yes, over two years while the case went on. The ship was released after an irrevocable bank guarantee was provided to the Court of millions of us dollars.
It is suggested that since this case covers not one watch (12-4) but two of them (12-4 & 4-8 pm) and the armed marines, thhe ship could be released on a bank guarantee of sufficient amount to cover all claims n more, and also that those on the bridge as also all the marines who were on duty during the said hours be landed ashore n kept under detention in India.
Perhaps Roberto might throw some light on the duty hours of the 6 marines on board- surely all would not be on duty all 24 hrs of the day-there must have been rotational duty hours.
And when the emergency arose as alleged it sounds "queer" that the whole contingent of marines on board were not called out.
If they were called out, who did so & when.What did they do during this emergency over 3 hours.
Incidentally the EL was travelling in the general NW direction at 14 knots and the SA was travelling in the general direction SE at 8 knots the visibility must have been really good for an attack alarm to have been sounded 2 hours earlier???
Most certainly the behaviour of the office of the DG Shipping is very amazing in this case and shall bear strict scrutiny at some later stage or the other. NOT taking the issue of the missing VDS further, providing for release of vessel and crew, and various other aspects.
Just tell me if you know- is it not mandatory for all arms to be declared with all the details; all ammu to be declared too for the Customs in the declaration on arrival in port limits.
Was the ship boarded by the Immigration/ Customs immediately she anchored at Kochi roads on 15 FEb night. Did they seal the arms/ ammu as required. Are you aware of the crew list on Feb 15 night- you are privy to more info than just the news reports being put out that we see.It will be nice to know the names of the officers who were on the bridge between 3 pm n 6 pm on that fateful day.
MMD/ DGS seems to be a bunch of pen pushers only when prodded but otherwise with normal marchant ships calling at ports they are like demons- heard one surveyor demanded that when he visits ships the seniormost agency man must be in attendance.
And in a case, he asked this director of the agency to even carry his briefcase??
Were there orders from the Ministry to treat this vessel with kid gloves?
Roberto, very reasonably, people on this page, are trying to tell you something.
Two people have died.
So just keep a check on the balance between two dead people from India, and two others from Italy - who have legal and consular representation, and are being fed pizza - by Court order.
(India also has people of the caliber of Storace and groups like Destra - re. my comments below - possibly also some local political people (e.g one in Milan) suggesting Italy should learn from the US and liberate your guys. My, my ... think these good folks should go and see what the US is learning from Indian special forces in the Jungle Warfare school at Mizoram or the High-Altitude Warfare school (available from US military Websites), or simply do some schoolbook maths on numbers, or just check Botswana's Airborne Africa (US Delta Forces and German GSG-9 and British SAS against Indian NSG and Marcos).
But that is free advice and misses the point you have missed below: NO Indian minister would make a dump-headed statement like Luca Zaia, especially with such immaculate timing. So do cut the equivalence.
On the other hand, as you are not getting the point on jurisdiction, I firstly and truly hope that the Enrica Lexie VDR and log is intact, somewhere or 'mea maxima culpa'.
But even then, in any case, let me quote a recent legal document on the de jure aspects in Italian (Legge Applicabile/Applicable Law); I have had a translation in English below that. This is core to the issue.
"Ai sensi dell’articolo 94 CNUDM, la giurisdizione sulle navi in alto mare è quella dello Stato di bandiera della nave medesima. Tuttavia, in caso una guardia armata causi il ferimento o la morte di una parte terza, un membro dell’equipaggio, un pescatore innocente od un pirata, in alto mare eventuali procedimenti penali o disciplinari possono essere iniziati dalle autorità dello Stato di bandiera o dallo Stato di cui tale soggetto sia cittadino.
TRANSLATED:
"Under Article 94 of UNCLOS, jurisdiction over vessels on the high seas is that of the State whose flag the ship itself. However, if an armed guard were to cause injury or death of a third party, a crew member, an innocent fisherman or a pirate on the high seas any criminal or disciplinary proceedings may be initiated by the authorities of the flag State or by the State of which such person is a citizen."
The two dead fishermen were citizens of India.
On a final note, may I request you to confirm three issues:
- Is the amount paid by the shipowners privately to the State, per soldier, @500 Euros per day ?
- Is there a reward for successful prevention of acts of piracy ?
- Is there anyone in Italy wondering how your government (no doubt preoccupied with its then near-bankruptcy) could rush through Law 107 last year, whose area of potential hostile encounter cuts into a country whose Navy and its air arm, and satellite infrastructure, is a little better equipped than Italy's, or Somalia's.
Highly principled and committed people always fill me with awe. Frankly, I wish India had some (more) like you. So I wish to join Malq in humbly submitting the above for your consideration.
Roberto2 months ago in reply to Ashutosh Sheshabalaya
AS,
considering that India ranks way worst than Italy as far as corruption, i would avoid any comment on your politician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index)
As far as translation, the last sentence refer to the country of the ship flag or to the country of the shooter, not of the victim... don't fool around with Google translate... (di cui tale "SOGGETTO", so the "guardia armata").
As far as the last point, i do confirm that shipowners pay for the escort; the amount i don't know, but it is sound reasonable... it is half of what i get as engineer when i do consulting, so it is not out of range... i don't see the problem... somebody has to pay for the expenses, considering that India is evidently not doing what it is supposed to do to protect the area...
1) You might want to read one of the articles I wrote on the supply side/demand side of corruption and pick up a copy of Nicholas Shaxson's "Treasure Islands" to understand what or who is corruption in this world. Please do not get me started on the corruption inherent in Italy's system or more in the enclaves within Italy - the Vatican and San Marino - and how it impacts the rest of the world.
2) Issue here is simple - 2 Indians have been killed on Indian territory. The suspects are in custody. An investigation is ongoing, a trial will take place. Now it appears that the armed mercenaries were contract bounty killers.
Please accept things. The history of the Indian Ocean economies from the advent of the Europeans is full of gun running by them, especially the Italians who felt that the Portugese and Spaniards had gone way ahead of them.
MalQ,
who would be the armed mercenaries you are talking about? I don't think you are referring to the two Italian Soldiers of the Italian Elite Corp Battaglione San Marco, right?
BTW, Italian media are referring that more than 300 fishermen has been killed in the past few years by Sri Lanka troops but nothing has been done due to political reasons between the two countries... is it true?
I do not talk about 'corruption' in your politicians or ours - just refer to a very immaculately-timed, cosmopolitan comment, at the level of an Italian Minister. Then again, as far as corruption goes, most Indians will actually agree with you, but let us not rake up a can of worms.
I do not. The catchword in the Wiki piece and anything from Transparency is 'perception', and if one goes looking for corruption, you find it - like beauty, that too lies in the eyes of the beholder, people like Signor Calvi, Craxi etc. etc. Agusta with the former Secretary General of NATO, who agreed there was some money in his bank account but did not know where it came from. Want a whole litany there ? Tell me where to send it.
Do note that no Indians not arrive at a place with preconceived ideas. Your biggest newspaper found it fit to publish that courts in India smell of piss. Yum, yum. As if that has anything to do with the case at hand ?
But this is not the place for all that.
On the translation, I was only trying to be courteous, coming as I do from a place with a rather small number of official languages.
So I do not FOOL around, Roberto, with Google. I also write here under my real name, unlike you - and if you wish, do check my audiences, on the same Google. I cannot afford to fool around; neither can they. So do not get personal.
But the Italo-Google translation means little. Here is the English version from the UN:
"Each State shall cause an inquiry to be held by or before a suitably qualified person or persons into every marine casualty or incident of navigation on the high seas involving a ship flying its flag and causing loss of life or serious injury to nationals of another State or serious damage to ships or installations of another State or to the marine environment. The flag State and the other State shall cooperate in the conduct of ANY INQUIRY HELD BY THAT OTHER STATE into any such marine casualty or incident of navigation.
UNCLOS has many gray areas; everyone knows that. But let us wait till the lawyers butt heads.
Before that, let us first see whether or not your guys shot some innocent people, who may have been simply waving their hands for Enrica to stay clear of their nets.
Roberto, very pleased to hear what you earn as an engineer. Have you also carried an assault rifle, sat behind the turret of a .50 caliber gun ? Know the responsibility this entails.
As for protecting the "area", take a look at IMO maps (till Enrica blustered in, there was ZERO). Maybe also sit down and read a bit about Indian naval efforts at hotspots on the same map, off Somalia - and in the Straits of Molucca.
See the case of Prabu Daya , the ship has been arrested and the master too.
Same rules apply, Of course all this has to be proven in court, including the voyage data recorder, which as per news paper reports has been missing in the case of Enrica Lexie
Wow. Francesco Storace (of right wing activists Destra) plans a night-time blitz on Indian restaurants in Italy to protest the Enrica Lexie affair, according to the 'Wall Street Journal'.
I wonder if such a thing would be allowed in India ??
But ... re. Roberto's reference below to 'civilized', do note the following:
In early 2009, Minister of Agriculture Luca Zaia, hailed moves to clamp down on non-Italian food as 'the safeguarding of our culture'. The city of Lucca (Tuscany) had just banned new Indian (and other 'ethnic') restaurants.
For context, this was not that long after an Indian was burnt by some attackers in Nettuno, near Rome.
Wonder if Storace/Destra have been inspired by these kinds of initiatives, and Ministers ?
Now, Indian courts order Italian food for the detainees from Enrica Lexie. Civilized or ... ?
Roberto2 months ago in reply to Ashutosh Sheshabalaya
Italy is full of stupids and Mr. Storace is one of those... don't take it as example. Nobody even listen to him anymore.
As far as Mr. Zaia, the issues was related to the fact that Europe would like us to buy oranges from Holland (???) when we have plany in Sicily... that's purely politics.
As far as Mr. Navtej Singh, he was attacked by three stupid guys that were having nothing better to do... they ended up with 14 years in jail... as i said every country has their own stupids.
But the point is that Italy is not claiming that the soldiers should be released but indeed, if guilty, processed in Italy under martial court. What would happen if an indian soldier would kill a civilian by mistake during a peace keeping action in another country... he would be judged by indian military court, right?
I think indeed that if the soldiers were US Marines or British, India would have not acted that way, but indeed it would have even apologized for forcing the marines to waist some bullets... that's the true... but there are so many economics and political reason to allow India to act as it is acting, that has nothing to do with the research of the truth...
The armed mercenaries on the ENRICA LEXIE were NOT peace-keeping forces under any circumstances. The official United Nations military observor forces for India are well-defined and details can be found here:-
The armed mercenaries took a unilateral action without any authorisation whatsoever on Indian territory, the fv St.Antony, and an investigation needs to be carried out. The issue of obstructing justice and destroying evidence is also a factor here.
Your comments about British or American troops is without any basis whatsoever.
One question you have not answered is this - there are more than enough robberies and thefts and pirate attacks in Italian waters on ships and yachts. Have the Italian armed military army San Marco ever shot at them and killed them like this, using high velocity sniper weapons, shot down like even animals are not hunted?
The message is clear - please don't mess with us, we have moved on from the colonial era. Italy should move on, too. Mare Nostrum is not feasible anymore.
Malq,
it is evident that you are talking just on emotional facts... at this time we still have not seen any objective proof that those bullets have been shoot by our SOLDIERS.
The fact that you still call them mercenaries, prove only that you just want to make a case out of anything. As a matter of fact, they keep retaining their uniforms, as they should. Mercenaries do not wear uniform and their status of Italian Soldiers have never been discussed, not even by Indian Justice.
And as i said before... stop talking about colonial era and roman "Mare Nostrum"... if you learnt a new word today, you should not use it everywhere... it is evident that colonialism is still a big problem for you guys but only on your side... honestly i can car less of how you mess up your country
Dear Roberto,
You mention that the two marines keep retaining their uniforms, even when attending court or while in the Central jail.
Tell me one thing, while on the ship Enrica Lexie do all 6 of the marines wear their uniforms; do they daily do their military training/ drills; do they go ashore at all ports of call in full military uniform- even when the ship is loading or discharging.
Are the remaining 4 marines on the EL while in Kochi always in uniform.
I read that the marines are in direct touch n get direct orders from the Ministry of Defence, Rome (and not from the Captain). So do they have their own communication setup on the EL bypassing the ships official communications setup.
I am still perplexed as to what happens at each port of call of the ship when there are marines on board-I know the ships communications setup is sealed but what about these marines communications setup with the Italian MOD- sealed too.
I am perplexed about the arms/ ammunation on the ship at each port of call- are they seperately sealed by the local authorities after an inventory has been made of them.
Please enlighten me an ignoramus
I have been reading all that has been written but some things as an ex seafarer confuse me.
It is mentioned that the fv was 100 mtrs away from the ship Enrica Lexie when the soldiers fired at "an apparent pirate vessel with 5 armed men on board"- 100 mtrs is 320 ft which means that with a bulbous bow the 15,000 dwt tanker (in ballast)wake would have already affected the fv making her toss & twist.This was at about 4 pm in the afternoon on a sunny clear day in the lower tropics of the Arabian Sea.
Well, how did this "fv- apparent pirate boat" reach this close to the ship.
Everyone knows that the horizon from 40 ft above waterlevel (bridge of a ship) in clear visibility is close to 12 /15 kms or 7 nautical miles. Nobody is mentioning whether this fv/apparent pirate boat was the only one on the E.Lexie visual horizon or was one of many vessels observed- why when the Kerala coast is rich with fish and abound with fv's.
The fog horn of the ship has a blast that is heard at least 3 miles way- I hurt my ear drum as the blast was sounded while I was close to the horn decades ago.Did the Captain/Duty officer sound the horn & did so repeatedly to attract attention (telling me that the Aldis lamp was used at 3 pm towards a fv/boat looking into the sun/ship is a joke of the year).
Sound signals are part of the anti collision requirements as any seafarer will know.
I read that the ship was bound for Fujairah from Singapore so must have passed the southern tip of Sri Lanka and then headed along the indian coast- sometime during or after the incident orders came to the ship to divert to Suez-what time was this diversion order sent out by whomever & what time was it received by the Captain & implemented.Surely when implemented there will have been communications between the ship/ owners as to when this was done and what time the ship would reach its destination.
why is this kept away with Scorpio saying they wash their hands off the vessel.
I have more but later after these few are answered.
Dear Roberto - here's what the Italians did when somebody killed passengers on an Italian flag ship in international waters.
Now, when Italians kill Indians on an Indian flag fishing vessel in Indian waters, Italy wants that the attackers - whether soldiers or not - should be released?
Where is the sense in this, one rule for Italians themselves, and another rule for others?
Please be rational.
rgds/VM
+++
Achille Lauro
MS Achille Lauro was a cruise ship based in Naples, Italy. Built between 1939 and 1947 as MS Willem Ruys, a passenger liner for the Rotterdamsche Lloyd. It is most remembered for its 1985 hijacking. In 1994, the ship caught fire and sank in the Indian Ocean off Somalia.
On October 7, 1985, four men representing the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF) took control of the liner off Egypt as she was sailing from Alexandria to Port Said.
The hijackers had been surprised by a crew member and acted prematurely. Holding the passengers and crew hostage, they directed the vessel to sail to Tartus, Syria, and demanded the release of 50 Palestinians then in Israeli prisons.
After being refused permission to dock at Tartus, the hijackers killed disabled Jewish-American passenger Leon Klinghoffer and then threw his body overboard. The ship headed back towards Port Said, and after two days of negotiations, the hijackers agreed to abandon the liner in exchange for safe conduct and were flown towards Tunisia aboard an Egyptian commercial airliner.
United StatesPresidentRonald Reagan ordered that the plane be intercepted by F-14 Tomcats from the VF-74 “BeDevilers” and the VF-103“Sluggers” of Carrier Air Wing 17, based on the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, on October 10 and directed to land at Naval Air Station Sigonella, a N.A.T.O. base in Sicily, where the hijackers were arrested by the Italians after a disagreement between American and Italian authorities.
The other passengers on the plane (including the PLF leader, Abu Abbas) were allowed to continue on to their destination,despite protests by the United States. Egypt demanded an apology from the U.S. for forcing the airplane off course.
Malq,
i am rational but what you are mentioning has nothing to do with this case... those of the Achille Lauro were terrorists; our are soldiers in uniform in a mission approved by Nato and ONU; so if something happen it was an accident. India is taking a unilateral decision of kidnapping our soldiers disregarding any international agreement.
As per the affidavit filed by the Italian Consulate General in India in the High Court of Kerala, case has been registered against the marines in Italy. (They will get 21 years of life imprisonment in Italy)
If
“they (Italian marines) fired warning shots to the air and water, to protect “their” territory, thus fully meeting the current regulations, in order to grant the safety of sea traffic threatened by criminal activities that jeopardize personal and economic freedom of movement in high seas”,
Why, then, a case has been registered in Italy against the marines, Mr. Thovez ?
Because it is a normal procedure to register this case in order to allow the defense to have full access to all the papers and acts. It is as easy at this. As soon as they will be release from India, there will be no need for a trial in Italy. Regards
So Roberto what you are in fact saying is that the case is an eyewash so that the marines (in this case the defence) gets full access to all papers, documents,etc,etc .
But you add that as soon as they get released from India, the so called trial in Italy will get put into cold storage forever.
What about the acts of ommission by the Italian Captain, the officers on duty on the bridge when this incident started developing and actually happened, what about the witnesses from the crew who may have seen what happened (surely with an "imminent pirate boarding scenerio" the rest of the crew would have been alerted, would have gone to their respective stations to face the "pirates" with the defences that they had with them,etc),what about the log entries, the electronic "black box", the ships course/speed recorder, the engine speeds/etc- why is all this kept "under wraps".
I am shocked to know that "the marines were protecting their 105,000 ton double skinned, inert gassed and 15 metres freeboard vessel from a wooden fishing boat that had only 2 men visible on deck".
I am sure the authorities have the right to cross question every one of the crew to see if there is an "Italian cooked up story" that has been spun- Indians are pass masters in interogation I can assure you.And will get to the truth.
P Phipson... so why should two trained marines shoot to a wooden fishing boat that had only 2 men visible on deck? For fun? There is no rational reason behind anything beside a pure intention of discourage the use of military troops on board of boats, in order to allow indian corrupted politics to do what they want.
The two marines from "Reggimento San Marco" did not shoot the fishing boat
The two Italian marines from “Reggimento San Marco”, trained to think before taking action, strictly followed the standard procedures concerning the fight against piracy.
They fired warning shots to the air and water, to protect “their” territory, thus fully meeting the current regulations, in order to grant the safety of sea traffic threatened by criminal activities that jeopardize personal and economic freedom of movement in high seas.
The two marines of the Italian Navy, on board the Enrica Lexie as protection detachment, took action while in international waters, fully in accordance with the United Nations resolutions and with law N. 130, August 2nd 2011; as their action’s target was a “boat suspected of piracy.”
The Italian marines on board the Enrica Lexie, that was sailing off the Southwestern coasts of the Indian peninsula, intervened last Wednesday, at 12.30 (Italian time), after sighting a boat approaching with five armed people on board.
Despite light flashes signaling and the identification procedures performed by the marines, the fishing boat did not change her course. At that point, the marines shot three series of gun shots (20 in all), with dissuasion purpose, but did not hit at any time the hull of the “boat suspected of piracy.”
After the last series of shot, the fishing boat moved away from the Italian motor tanker.
Sir,
Are you aware of the different modes of attracting attention that a merchant ship has on board? Light, sound, electrical,electronic.
Are you aware that light signals are useless when the receiver is looking into the sun.
No doubt that the fishing boat was 100 mtrs away from the ship when fired upon. Did she just drop into place. Why were the fog horns not sounded, why was the ships whistle not used, why was the VHF not used.
To be told by the Consulate that the marines were out of the control of the Captain is really putting the nail into the coffin.
Is the Captain of a merchant ship a mere figurehead when there are armed marines on the ship. When does he next get complete control over his ship. Am I being told that the marines have authority to overrule the Captain.
Sorry as a seafarer I cannot swallow such a scenerio.
Find some other excuses.
The issue here is the murder of two Indian seafarers (fishermen) who were murdered on an Indian flag fishing boat (Indian territory). There are some suspects, the legal system in India is trying them, and that is how it is.
The rest of it, your contention about UN resolutions and similar, are noted - but do not apply on Indian territory.
The Italian ship could have stayed far away from Indian waters but it chose to enter and stay within Indian waters. As a result, it now faces Indian laws, and if that is not agreeable - then it should not have entered Indian waters.
Please, this is 2012 - and not the age of colonial gunboat diplomacy. Anybody wants to be in or around India, adheres to Indian law.
UN Resolutions on many other things may be applicable to Italy also, is Italy in full adherence to them, would you care to double check please?
Please also see the case of the ALONDRA RAINBOW in this context.
Malq, you should really stop about all this history of colonialism... and you should blame England, not Italy nevertheless.
India has agreement in place about military troops and jurisdiction... everything else is just words in the wind. If the boat was more than 12 miles away, those are international water. I remember another guy that was having problems remembering that... he was mr. Gheddafi from Lybia... and he did not end up well. This is why we have treats and agreements. You don't like them, .... not my problem.
Gadaffi "did not end up well." Do you mean that Italy will/can attack India .... Which planet are you on ? The effective tonnage and fleet size of the Indian Navy will very soon be more than Italy and France combined.
'Vital' interests simply mean the right of a State versus international agreements, when the waters (sorry) are gray.
And so to clarify the context of 'colonialism': no one is talking about history or why Signor G. Marconi was disgraced officially by the IEEE (not so long ago) for stealing a key invention from an Indian scientist. One is only referring to a state of mind and two contextual parallels which are uncomfortably close to the source of the 'piracy' problem, namely Somalia.
Here goes. Case 27765/09:
The European Court of Human Rights has held that a group of Somalian and Eritrean nationals who were intercepted by Italian Customs boats and returned to Libya involved a violation of Article 3 (Anti-torture and inhumane treatment), Article 4 of Protocol 4 (collective expulsion of aliens), and Article 13 (right to an effective remedy) of the European Convention on Human Rights.
Your business ? Right ? Agreed.
Or the infamous case of Italian "peacekeepers" in Somalia.
New York Times: August 9, 1997
"Italy confirmed today that its soldiers had tortured Somalis while on a peacekeeping mission, but an official report said that the abuses were not widespread and that senior Army officers were largely blameless.
The commission suggested that magistrates and rights experts should travel with soldiers on future peacekeeping missions to guarantee that international law is upheld.
Two generals who led the Italian forces to Somalia resigned in June after publication of graphic reports of sexual violence against a Somali woman, electric torture of a young man and allegations that an officer had murdered a young boy. Ettore Gallo, a former president of Italy's Constitutional Court who led the inquiry, said the two could not be held responsible.
Your justice ? Right. Your business. Sure.
Not India's concern at all - even though India has placed 100 times more soldiers in UN peacekeeping. Hell, the joke was when Indian combat troops escorted EU troops who were escorting EU election observers in Congo - where the combat arm of the whole exercise (AIFVs, 20+ attack helicopters) was Indian.
Finally, okay I am just guessing. Let us see the evidence when it comes up.
But this is important. A Minimi (even the Beretta version used by Italian San Marco) works ONLY on full automatic. And the 'experts' in the media commenting on the 'size' of the bullet holes in the St. Antony obviously forgot about yawing - a reason, why Belgian SS109 ammunition is used rather than M193 in the NATO 5.56 x 45 standard.
And don't get me wrong. We may have a muddleheaded government, but we do not have the Council of Hindu Temples all over the place, or their opinions aired on the front page of national dailies. They keep to themselves, where they belong, scandals and all.
Meanwhile, can you give one, just one major 'Italian' paper which has even considered the 'Indian' side of the case.
In contrast, a very respected Indian daily, Tehelka, has coherently echoed the 'Italian' case, like a trained parrot. Another, Asian Age, has asked India to de-escalate.
That, my friend, is democracy: a cacophony of opinions, underscored by the rule of law, not a choreographed opera.
Roberto2 months ago in reply to Ashutosh Sheshabalaya
This exactly what i'm talking about... i'm not talking about wars or anything... what i'm saying is that from a country that claims to be civilized, i would expect respect for international laws and agreements. Indeed all i see is claims on individual events... the point is that those are two italian soldiers on a mission; and they are treated as criminals, and i refuse to believe that they were in the middle of the sea shooting to innocent people for fun; all i see indeed is hate and acts of force from India proving that you yet still have a long way to go before considering yourself a civilized country; shipping thousand of degreed people around the world those not make you one; having military power and nuclear bombs either; i'm sure that considering that India is such a great place, you will have no problem if we collect all the illegal immigrants from India, pack them on a boat and send them back to you, right?
Indeed - but you did talk about lessons of Gadaffi. Please see final para too.
I mentioned already that international law is over-ridden by national law in 'gray' areas, and that is part of accepted international law.
So, the 'where' of the accident may be 'gray' but the ship VDR and log ought to have details. Sadly, this does not seem to be the case.
India's due process is never in a hurry. So before Indian police let us know about the missing (?) VDR and log, have your people set that record straight.
Corriere della Sera has a good write up - your government and Foreign Ministry made the mess of colliding with a rising world power, while your expert perceptions date back a century or two. My other comments below may indicate how and why.
Your courts or Parliament should quickly look at the legality of Law 107. There were reasons why ill-informed 'experts' rushed this through.
Corriere, however, suggests Italy should take the "help" of the EU and Britain. Again, catch up with the clock. Don't touch Britain. It is a place now treated by India, like Brazil treats Portugal. Indian companies are Britain's largest employer incidentally, but Britain is still desperate to give India aid - which India does not want and calls peanuts. Indeed, India gives more aid now to Africa (or Afghanistan) than Britain. So, last week a perplexed Britain toughened visa rules for Indians. The Indians tightened visa rules for Brits. Guess who blinked first ?
This indicates who needs who more today. So hope your protestors that if Italians boycott Indian goods, they will be playing with fire; India invented the 'boycott' tradition as a weapon. Your companies (whatever is left of them) need the Indian market much more than India needs them.
Piss Indians of too much, and they may not subscribe to the IMF bailout of the Euro, or buy out Ducati (yes, may well happen if Indian-American funds have their way).
So, do collect all the illegal immigrants 'from India' and send them back. But check your figures, again. India has a very low rate of 'illegal' immigration. Indeed, net illegal immigration into India is far higher.
So, some may look 'Indian'. They come from countries next door, from where India too has illegal immigration - actually, quite a bit more than Italy.
But make sure that the Modena police do not pick up Ferrari's top CAE design teams - India is there as a Tier I partner after EDS got the sack.
Last year, India gave 45,000 work visas each from Germany and France. So it is clear where future immigrants are/will be headed to - both legal and illegal.
Hate, acts of force. Do you see your marines looking anything, other than well fed - with Italian food, under court order.
Civilized - what is that. Read my post again on Somalia and Italy, or Case 27765/09.
AS,
agreed on everything... so at the end it is just politics and economics... nobody gives a shit about your fishermen and the marines... that's the point.
The era of "mare nostrum" is over, and how far back in history do you want to go on immigrants, 25 million to the US in the last 125 years from Italy to start with?
Please do not forget, just about 70 years ago, it was soldiers from India who liberated Italy, and then helped re-build it. Be grateful instead of talking about "packing in boats and sending them back".
These two armed mercenaries, they are suspects, they are now under-trials. Think about it - how many thieves running around in boats in Naples or Porto Marghera harbour have been shot dead, ever, by such armed guards that you want to justify them coming to Indian waters and claiming immunity?
Stand trial. If they are guilty, they get punished. If they are not, they get released. Simple as that.
If Indian law was not acceptable the ship should not have come into Indian waters. This is the risk of doing international business
Considering that I live in few miles from Venice (i think that what you meant with Porto Marghera) i can assure you that no indians have never been shot dead by Italian Police or Military in Italy... you should not belive to those stories.
As far as mercenaries... AGAIN... THOSE ARE ITALIAN SOLDIERS FROM REGGIMENTO SAN MARCO.
And they were not in Indian waters, they were in international waters, more than 12 miles from the coast.. got it?
Oh, and BTW, only 5.5 million italians from 1820 to 2004 emigrated to US... again... you should not belive everything you read.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Ame...
1) The St. Antony is an Indian flag fishing vessel, and a crime has been committed onboard, the suspects are in jail pending investigations.
2) About 25 million Italians managed to enter America and here's a good resource on the subject, would you like the Americans to "pack the 20 million extras back in a boat"?
3) My question on the the ports in Italy is this - fishing boats and other boats, including thieves and pirates, come near ships in Italian ports too. Does the Italian Army shoot them too? (Italian Job not-withstanding . . .)
I think the larger issue is this - for centuries now, Italy has been amongst the primary suppliers of arms and ammo in the Arabian Sea and African economies, and trying to get some sort of a grip. Now that it appears as though blowback is taking place, there is a lot of whining?
Please, get used to this - Indian law prevails in India. We respect the Italians, likewise the Vatican, but this is none of their business.
And maybe Italy should be more careful about where it sends its soldiers in future. Seems whereever they go, they surrender to Indian jawans?
I agree with Mr Malik, I was in transit over the same area just a week ago and we kept well away from known fishing areas. however we had 3 greeks on board who were very upset that we were not carrying armed guards from Colombo. Please note IMO and insurance agencies have declared all areas west of longitude 78 East as high risk area and full anti piracy precautions to be enforced. It is to the discredit of the Indian state that the whole of Indian west coast is effectively declared as piracy prone area and with no protest from India. Of course it must be kept in mind that security services approved by insurance companies are UK or US based and charge about 50000USD for provding guards. It may benifit India more if the make a statement that arms found on board any ship in Inia's EEZ will be treated as per Indian custo laws or the ships having guards should transit outside EEZ. There is precedence with US demands for long range location and reporting of vessels off their coast and I am sure both Pakistan and Sri Lanka will be happy to back India in this.
Dear Mr Nair,
You mention that IMO and the Insurance companies have declared all waters west of 78degrees east as high risk. Have they also given latitude limits for this high risk area? Since you are a sailing person can you also enlighten us if it is a fact that the entire coastal area around peninsula India is a high density fishing area and what instructions are given to Master's of commercial vessels in the 'Pilots' with regard keeping clear of fishing vessels n their nets.
If I may ask till what distance from the Kerala coast do these fishing limits extend.
Lets have facts from a Mariner.
Guys, this is just politics, nothing more... follow the money trail... probably the corrupted politicians are linked to the pirates, and are tired not to be able to board ships anymore, so the put up all this show, maybe killed the two poor fishmen... who know... nobody really care... everything will end up with a little bit of money for the families, italians at home not guilty, maybe more concern before shooting to boats, probably more freedom and some money for the corrupted police and corrupted politicians in that area... end of story
Sorry Roberto but its not the end of the story as you put it. Do you have a crystal ball with you that you think that everyone being "paid off" be it the corrupt politicians, the police, et all the fact of cold blood killing will go away.
Wait till the Indian crew get out of the clutches of the ship, the owners and the management company; they will be made witnesses to the crime and will be grilled by the smart lawyers to the facts of the case.
You say it is politics; sorry I do not agree with you.
Lets see what happens unless Italy grants dual passports to the 19 Indian crew and their families and residency in Italy to keep them quiet.
Are you aware whether or not every crew member was allowed to talk to/ be examined by the Indian authorities who boarded the ship without anyone else there being present.
Are you aware if statements have been taken by the Indian authorities from each person who was a witness to the happenings.
Are you aware that there is circulating a video of what was seen.
Why are the arms & ammunation being kept out of the reach of the Indian police.
(you do not know, perhaps, but India has a civil service that is as good if not better than the British these days- see how many of them have been taken by the UN to help out worldwide).
Your allegation of corrupted police surely does not include the ones from the IPS (Indian Police Service)- and quite a few of them are there in the photographs on this incident.
Indian crew not kept on board against their will but staying in accordance with their contract with the management co/ owner/ govt authorities- whether it be 4 months or 6 months or more only the ones in the know will be able to tell us and they are keeping their mouths shut for the present.
Most certainly the Indian crew onboard is and will be under immense pressure (in a dropping job market . . ) from a variety of people (the authorities, viz DG Shipping/MMD/Shipping Master (All exams, certificates, revalidations, courses, future employment . . . .), the owners (Dolphin Shipping and other entities linked very closely with certain GodFather type arms of the real world), the commercial managers (Scorpio Ship Management, who have put out a press release saying they have nothing to do with the ship . . .) the Maritime unions (more visible by their abscence . . .) and ofcourse the long arm of the law (that is also a fact of life). In addition, remember, the Merchant Navy is a career without any social security or safety net, once the contract is over, the seafarer is going to be on his own.
In addition, it is clear to all who can see that the Italian authorities are focussed only on (a) releasing their soldiers and (b) getting the ship free and out. All else will be and is colateral.
Why are the Indian seafarers keeping their mouths shut? Why have they not come out with their own comments? Are they not free?
Because as of now they have been tossed around from all ends, so best is to keep quiet - and that is what their contract says - keep quiet.
The complete maritime administration from Bombay - DGS, NA, Chief Surveyor, Shipping Master, Delhi bosses et all are landing up in Cochin later today to "inaugurate" the new MMD building - let us see what transpires further? I will take a bet that this visit is another excuse to, ofcourse have a great weekend in Cochin, but also to pressurise the Indian crew to keep quiet.
The entity who pays the money will call the shots, simple, and there too the stakes have gone up.
Fact remains, DGS elements were aware of this attack as early as 15th February early evening, what did they do? Likewise the ship managers in Mumbai.
As an ex-seafarer and human being, I feel sorry for the Indian seafarers onboard.
Thanks malq for the news about the new MMD building inauguration. I hope someone will keep a close tab on what these "bosses" do in Kochi- hopefully they will not go near the ship/ will not try to make contact with the crew and will let the police do their job.
I am surprised to read that Scorpio Ship Management has issued a statement that they have nothing to do with the ship- well then who employed the 19 Indian crewmen, who carried out their pre joining formalities, who represented the shipping company with regard to signing the articles of agreement, etc, etc (surely not Dolphin or Scorpio in Monaco).Can someone throw light on this please.
Also intersting is to know the last 30 days prior to 15 Feb where the ship was; what cargo she carried from where to where and whether each of the ports of call were aware of arms/ ammunation on board the vessel- if so, whether they were under the control of the ship's command or the soldiers of the Italian army in their cabins.If under the former, when were they released once again to the soldiers/mercenaries.If under the latter, then were they in breach of that country laws.
Malq are you aware who has control of arms/ ammunation when such type of ships call at Indian ports and when are they released to the "guards"- after they leave port, within territorial waters or within contiguous zone waters or what.
Maybe the Customs have to answer this query as they seal everything that is "suspect".
(Olympic Flair was at Kochi anchorage; how come they had arms to shoot off petty thieves?
I hope media and others present at Cochin take this opportunity to question the DGS and his people on the whole larger issue - what did they do so far about the Indians on the ship, what's the status on the agrrement and licence of Scorpio Ship Management in Mumbai in this matter, what is DGS' role with the fishermen in Kerala, and more - why aren't DGS pressing for a port state control inspection of the ship itself?
Since there is so much talk about UNCLOS, I thought I would include some parts of a discussion on the subject on the Merchant Navy websites between some people of all nationalities.
""interpretation and application of the provisions of UNCLOS -
particularly with the Articles mentioned by him - i.e. Articles 95, 96 and
100 to 107, and 110.
At the outset, it must be understood clearly that even though India is a
signatory to the UNCLOS and has ratified that convention without
reservations, Indian national statutes continue to be applicable. If and
when there is a conflict between an Indian national statute and the
provisions of the UNCLOS or any other international convention, the former shall prevail. *UNCLOS and international conventions are NOT INDIAN LAW. *Hence the tendency to quote and rely on the provisions of UNCLOS without reference to Indian penal statutes must be curbed and the interpretations reached must be treated with circumspection.
Notwithstanding the above, I find the interpretation of the various Articles in Part VII of UNCLOS erroneous and misleading. (in many cases . . .)
Vide Article 86, the provisions of Part VII (which part is titled "High
Seas") apply to " all parts of the sea that are *not* included in the
exclusive economic zone, in the territorial sea or in the internal waters
of a State....." because the Italian vessel is said to have been more than 12 miles off the Indian coast, the
provisions applicable on the "High Seas" apply to the case is patently
erroneous. In other words, Part VII has no application whatsoever, if the
Italian vessel was up to 200 nautical miles off the Indian coast.
Article 95 reads: Warships on the high seas have complete immunity from the
jurisdiction of any State other than the flag State. Invited
to note that the Italian vessel was neither on the High Seas as defined
above, nor was she a Warship. Further, military personnel on board a
merchant ship do not enjoy any immunity whatsoever. Hence, even assuming the merchant vessel was on the High Seas within the meaning of Part VII / Artilcle 85, the Italian military personnel posted on board that merchant vessel had no immunity whatsoever and are liable to the same treatment as any other accused.
Perhaps () would explain on which authority he founds his
averment of "full immunity" for military personnel on the high seas, *including
in the EEZ * -- in the face of clear provisions of Articles 85 and 95.
Article 96 gives Immunity to ships used only on government noncommercial
service and appears to have no application to the present case. The vessel in question was admittedly a merchant ship engaged in commercial activity on a voyage to PG/Egypt.
Article 97 concerns Penal jurisdiction in *matters of collision or any
other incident of navigation. * By no stretch of imagination can the
incident of shooting at the crew of the fishing boat fall under the
category of collision or incidents of navigation. Perhaps *() will
explain why he relies on this Article in the present circumstances.
() then relies on Articles 100 to 107. Suffice it to extract the
following provisions regarding definition of piracy:
* Article 101. Definition of piracy*
* Piracy consists of any of the following acts:*
* (a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depreda tion,
committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private
shipor a private aircraft, and directed:
*
* (i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against
personsor property on board such ship or air-craft;
*
Assuming the Italian vessel was on the High Seas, then by the above
definition, it is she and her crew / other persons on board who engaged in
piracy-- and accordingly must face all consequences of engaging in piracy
-including, but not limited to seizure of the ship under Article 105 of
UNCLOS.
So any one can come in to Indian waters and kill any indians - only to provide 25 Lakhs as Bank Guarantee, as if its a contract. Only in contracts, Bank Guarantee is required to be provided to get advance or to commit to the performance. Not for killing..Alas...what India does for its (not her) citizens?
It is very sad to read that the Kerala H Court has freed the vessel on a bank guarantee of 25 lakhs or usd 50000?? Shocking as it would not even cover the cost of the two Coast Guard vessels, one naval vessel and one aircraft going to search for this "shoot & scoot" vessel- 14/ 33/55 miles off the Indian coast depending on who is stating the distance.
Is this the amount that the HC has put as the cost of 2 Indian lives.
Will someone please elaborate what the plaint was from the Italians, what the arguments for/ against were and any comments on why this cheapie amount was ordered.
Ofc the "consent of the investigation agencies also necessary" mentioned covers a multitude of reasons why the vessel should be detained.
I know of a case where for a minor oil pollution (unproved at the time) the duty engineer & the duty officer were arrested, the ship was fined usd 150,000 and also asked to give a bank guarantee of usd 500,000 which was immediately given by the owners P & I Club.
Yes, the levels for bond being set are kind of low, but I guess that's how it is.
In addition, the deafening silence from the Ministry of Shipping, which is also tasked with taking action on such events, is amazing - it is almost as though they have all gone into hibernation on their own subject. But then, again, maybe there is something we do not know.
Like, what exactly happened ashore in the corridors of power between 15th February 2012 afternoon and 16th February 2012 morning . . .
Regarding compensation, I would like to draw attention to the double standards. A few months ago, in a defamation case filed by a judge, a TV channel was fined Rs.100 crores. The crime was that while mentioning the name of a judge in a case, instead of showing the judge's picture, another judge's picture was shown on the channel for a few seconds. So, the two fishermen's lives are deemed to be worth a mere Rs.25 lakhs whereas the damage to a reputation (many may not agree that there has been damage since the channel has apologised for the mistake) is worth Rs.100 crores.
The time has now come for one to ascertain whether all the 19 Indian crew members are covered by the Articles of agreement with this vessel owners (not Managers for heaven's sake) in Italy and not in Monaco. There should be someone applying under the RTI Act to get all details of these crewmembers so as to ascertain how long more is their stay on the vessel, get their addresses etc so that they can be interviewed without threat from the Captain, the owners or the ship management company.
Where are the Unions officebearers of the officers/ crew- why are they not speaking up- have they been silenced by the authorities.
At whose behest?
I note that different distances from the shore are being bandied about but is the exact position where this incident took place something secret. Whether in territorial waters or in the 24 mile cont. zone makes no difference in my opinion- can anyone go beyond the 12 mile limit and do whatever they want- today it is shooting; tomorrow it might be gang warfare being played out- there is no end to it.
Capt Bhan in Tehelka has given a biassed article- is he too a ship manager/ employment agent.
Distance from the shore is not relevant in this case, nor was it in, for example, the case of the ALONDRA RAINBOW (caught and brought back from over 300 miles away . . .) The laws are clear - a crime has been committed at sea, the suspects are in Indian custody, let the law take it's course.
Can you imagine in a similar case, if the South African or Pakistani cricketers were not to be tried under Indian or British laws for match fixing?
Yes, interesting aspect on the Indians onboard, and the articles they signed. I have an ongoing battle with DGS on the dual agreements that Indians sign, one article with DGS/Shipping Master and another with the ship manager/owner, with all the ISM responsible stuff thrown in to complicate matters and remove liability.
I am indeed shocked to read that two different agreements are signed; does it mean that the one signed by the crew before leaving India are worthless pieces of paper. And what the crew sign again is the one that is the gospel for them. What is the use of the first agreement if overridden by another different agreement-I would appreciate knowing VM what the main differences are if you have done some study on it.
Are our seamen being led down "the garden path" with the knowledge/ connivance of some authorities of the GOI?
This is shocking..... What the Catholic Cardinal has to do with shooting? How is he trying to intervene in the proceeding. Read more
"He was accompanied by Kerala native K.V. Thomas, a minister of state in the ministry of agriculture and in the ministry of consumer affairs.
Thomas "is a man of great moral stature and significant influence, both in the local and in the central government, who has assured me of his maximum effort. I guarantee my constant attention in the coming days," Alencherry said."
I wonder, if the same Cardinal has shown similar kind of interest in rescuing Indian searfarers anywhere?
Now, we see the roman catholic churuch is getting involved. I am sure they get their instructions from Vatican. This is unfair, even Jesus Christ would not have allowed this to happen.
Satnam. Yes indeed, the issue of ballistic evidence is the issue (I had mentioned it). But it is not as simple as it sounds.
Gallus, I think you raise a lot of good points. But the issue of why the Indian police have not established this "elementary proof" is simple.
The reason is due process. The Kerala police had to first petition a local court for an order to take custody of the weapons. This was given only on Tuesday, February 21. All weapons aboard are in the custody of Italian diplomats. Had the police simply boarded and seized the weapons (as many other countries might have), allegations of 'tampering' would have arisen - not least in India, itself.
Second, hopefully some bullets will have been recovered (see below). The discrepancy between Indian and Italian estimates about the number of shots can simply be a question of how many bullet holes there are in the Indian boat versus the number of bullets physically recovered. This will depend on firing distance and also type of weapon(s) and ammunition used. The question of possible 'overkill' from the San Marcos soldiers, is to me, one of the most disturbing aspects of the whole case. They are usually trained in a full range from Minimis to Browning M2Bs - whose bullets may not have remained in the flimsy hull of the boat, even at a distance of 500 meters.
Still, both the bullets (if any), and the weapons, will have a by-the-book custody chain in place in India.
A decade ago, in a similar high-profile case, Indian police nabbed a South African cricket demi-god for match-fixing. Everyone then laughed, even in India: Indian police. Ha, ha. But the sting operation - and the technologies used - are today a text book case. And just for reference, getting into the (federal) Indian Police Service is as tough as France's ENA.
The entire Enrica case is political, of course. There are not only jurisdictional issues between India and Italy, but between the Delhi and Kerala governments (and this is not about Sonia Gandhi).
India has a very heavy federal system, much more so than Europe. States are responsible for fisheries in territorial waters (to 12 nm), the federal government in EEZ waters beyond. The corpus of maritime laws distributing jurisdiction between Delhi and the Indian coastal States have recently been especially stressed (for various reasons). I believe V. J Mathews, a top Indian lawyer hired by the Italian government, will make a huge play on this as part of his legal strategy.
Now, given that the question of where the Indian boat was when it was shot at, is important, reports in Italy about satellite 'images' may be a bit premature. Few know that the world's largest constellation of remote sensing satellites is the Indian IRS system. So, apart from satphone location or mobile phone signal triangulation, there may well be some surprises there too.
Having said this, the question of extra-territorial action (beyond the 12 nautical mile limit on which the Italian government seems to be basing the public face of its case) has been greatly tested in Indian law, after the 1999 capture by Indian naval forces, supported by its air arm, of the MV Alandro Rainbow, a Japanese-owned, Panama-flagged vessel which had been taken over by pirates, renamed and repainted. What was then the first anti-piracy action of its kind in over 7 decades was hailed by the IMB: "It was fantastic to see the Indian authorities act under the auspices of INTERNATIONAL LAW to intercept the ship." The interception was done 300 nautical miles away, from Kochi.
However, after six years, technicalities led to the Bombay High Court dismissing the case, and freeing the pirates. So, Gallus, the Italians worried about the Indian legal system should not worry too much. This is hardly lynch mob country.
There will be some jingoism, of course - but don't forget Italy. I have an Italian working for me who translates press reports and the comments from the public. Many of the latter are clearly racist, by any measure, but let the chatter continue.
Some talk of the BJP against Sonia. May I point out to you that no one has questioned the rights of the newly appointed Cardinal from Kerala to make a public push of the Italian case.
Then, what about the routine mention of compensation, which is trifling in Euros (possibly not for very long, even in Europe), but few then understand this was the first tranche from one State (Kerala). Tamil Nadu has also added its compensation, and there will be more, possibly from Delhi. Lastly, the owners of the vessel will pay, but then again 1 crore rupees is paltry, too, in Euros. So is life cheap or are living costs cheaper ?
Finally, do not forget that the Italian Ambassador started the whole fracas with undiplomatic comments.
1. He immediately insisted that the Enrica Lexie was attacked and the firing was only in self-defence. How did he know ? Or was he already making the a priori assumptions. I mean there were two dead bodies. Enrica admitted it had fired - but never reported it. So whodunit ? [See 'good reason' clause below].
2. The Ambassador said that the Enrica came to India voluntarily. Now, whatever this be the truth or not, is unimportant. Article 111 of LOSC provides a right of hot pursuit of a foreign ship when the authorities of a coastal State have good reason to believe that the ship has violated its laws and regulations. Such pursuit can be beyond territorial waters, and may be continued even outside the contiguous zone, until the pursued ship enters the territorial sea of another State.
There are some fine points here, but the crux of the issue is the undertone of the Ambassador's statement.
Would Enrica have preferred an 'involuntary' return to Kochi - or continuing to hope no one (else) noticed ?
Had a staffer at the Italian Embassy (or the Italian media) researched Indian efforts on the Somali anti-piracy front, which on a like-for-like basis has among the world's highest success rates, or the huge spike in Indian arrests of foreign vessels in its exclusive zone since 2007, it would have been apparent that this is not some coastal state like Fiji.
Real-time incident maps, available from the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) website, show India's adjoining waters to be pirate free, except for the Enrica (and Olympic Flair) shootout. The high risk zone begins near the Arabian Gulf on India's west, and Indonesia on the east. The closest attacks to Indian shores were roughly 500 nautical miles west of mainland India, but most have been foiled by the Indian Navy. To put this in perspective, attacks have also occured this year at a similar distance from the US naval base of Diego Garcia.
Indian naval aircraft like the Tu-142 fly for 12 hours at a stretch, Kochi has two squadrons of naval UAVs, and its 24 P-8s mean more reconnaissance than any European naval air arm, along with state-of-the-art magnetic anomaly detection. This is, as I said, apart from its remote sensing satellites, whose data is incidentally widely used in Europe. And then, given the context, there is also INSAT-3a, an Indian geostat satellite - the only one used for search and rescue across the Indian Ocean for several years after 2003.
Let me conclude with some comments. There is clear mismanagement of perceptions. I really do hope that the distraction of Olympic Flair will get settled. Otherwise, there will be a continuing mess on the two issues - of India's jurisdiction over Enrica versus whether Enrica shot the Indian fishermen, told no one about it, and then (tried to flee): sorry, this is what it will appear like. Even today (February 21), AGI reports that "Greek ship never asked if it had been attacked off India", although as VM proves below, this ship could not possibly have been near the scene of the shootings, and had reported it, as required - unlike Enrica.
One key question concerns the rules of engagement for the Italian security detail, and whether these were followed. The IMO (and common sense) recommends evasion as a good step. The fastest Indian fishing boats (e. g from Kerala's Samudra) have top speeds below 12 knots.
Next, I truly wonder about the advisability of seconding serving Italian soldiers seconded to merchant vessels on payment by the shipowners, and then claiming sovereign immunity if they blunder.
The legal case is an altogether different story. But the truth will emerge. Maybe the Italian press should start by reporting why it has taken so long to get hold of the weapons.
Gallus3 months ago in reply to Ashutosh Sheshabalaya
Dear Ashutosh Sheshabalaya,
Thank you for your intervention. I felt really honored by its high quality and delighted by the depth of your analysis. It is by far the best post that I have ever seen in any blog. A quick search on the Internet confirmed my impressions about your intellectual level.
Back to the facts, I am happy to hear your considerations, and more confident about a fair treatment of their case by the Indian authorities.
Thank you again for your valuable contribution,
Gallus
PS: if you still live in that European country, it happens that I have a client some 70 km from your home. I would be glad to meet you an pay you a dinner, if you wish so.
Gallus, sure, as long as timing is okay.
I live in 3 countries, and often travel. Do you eat wild boar ? I supply a very good restaurant and can attest to quality.
Just been talking with an Italian lawyer about disquiet on the use of soldiers in Law 107, that the regole d’ingaggio are classified, and worse, that Kochi, India, had been proposed as one of the loading/unloading points for armed Italian NMPs, alongside other major world naval powers like Mauritius, Seychelles, Mozambique, Oman, Kenya and Sri Lanka.
More cross-currents. Many of the above NMP loading/unloading countries depend on India for their navies; India is supplying Dhruv helicopters, FACs and patrol boats, as well as coastal radars. Some years ago, as it happens, Indian warships protected the African Union summit in Mozambique.
I wonder if the Indian government was ever consulted on this issue of Italian NMPs in Indian waters.
You do understand that Kerala and Kochi esp. is highly sensitive for several reasons. The French know it very well, after some divers strayed - and this was a long time ago.
In 5 minutes Confitarma, and your government should have seen - NO WAY.
Another Italian ship in trouble.
Indian Navy airplanes doing photo-recon. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-1...
This is off the coast of Africa. Reinforces my points above.
malq2 months ago in reply to Ashutosh Sheshabalaya
Thanks, noted.
And some more questions which come to mind . . .
1) Behind the corporate veil of varying entities (Dolphin, d"Amato, Scorpio, and others) who is the real owner of the ship, and in that case, is the real owner entitled to UNCLOS protection. (My info is that the real owners are American interests - who have not signed/implemented UNCLOS . . . and also from San Marino, which also likewise has not signed UNCLOS. There is a legal point here - UNCLOS applies not only to flag state, but also to owner, port state and transit state. Enough legal strength in that, and has been used in the reverse direction often . . . )
2) What is the status of the two Italian Captains onboard the ship, which one of them was actually in command, and what was the other doing?
3) Have the Italians provided a copy of the arms and ammo manifest required as per IMO/BMP3-4, before the vessel was provided with armed guards, as submitted in Singapore and Colombo.
4) What about the statements from the Chief Officer, who is an Indian, and who was on the 4-8pm watch when the incident took place. Most navigating officers now carry their personal GPS equipment as well as charts on their laptops, have those records been seized/accessed by the Police, and if not, why not? The Indians onboard are under Indian Articles signed with Shipping Master in Mumbai, and their legal position is not covered by flag state but by state of country of origin.
+++
Meanwhile, mystery - why has the DGS not filed an FIR at an Admiralty Court in India, as yet?
Interesting discussions.
I think one of the early comments was about why the ship was not boarded and weapon seized.
Unless the weapon was thrown overboard.
If the VDR data is also missing, then the problem will be very serious for the Italians - as there will be proof of intention to destroy evidence.
Typically, a company like http://mtinetwork.com/mti_india.php would get involved, and on one side, place a blanker ban on any communication by their cients while on the other side start a cacophony demanding all sorts of information from everybody.
It is called perception management.
Luckily, over here, the authorities have wised up to things too.
We see how this unfolds and how the various players react eventually.
Interim, interesting to learn about the Vatican stepping in - I wonder what they did in the case of Captain Glenn Aroza . . .
Gallus ji, lots of mails from you, so trying to address them all here.
1) The Olympic Flair incident was well reported, including on this page itself, 5 days ago. It also was incident No. 54-12 on the IMB website here:- http://www.icc-ccs.org/piracy-reporting-...
This happened at 2220hrs local time, and was widely known as Cochin Anchorage is quite a busy place, moved up escalated on communication systems and then responded to, and also on open VHF channels
2) Now please see the same map above. Please note the time the bodies of the 2 fishermen from the fv St. Antony after the Enrica Lexie incident not denied by the Ambassador of Italy as well as Masters of Enrica Lexie, were landed ashore well South of Cochin and compare that with the Olympic Flair incident. Please also be aware that substantial communication about the Enrica Lexie/St Antony incident took place from the Enrica Lexie using communication to Monaco and Mumbai well before the Olympic Flair incident. I am sorry, but I can not share this information in more detail.
3) Furthermore, this is about 2 murdered Indian seafarers. This is NOT about the Italian-Greek war which took place, also, in 1941 - so please do not try to bring it up here.
4) Now, piracy, robbery, marine fraud, scuttling, arms running, narcotics, white slavery, human smuggling, ARCTIC SEA case, ACHILLES LAURO case, RAZAK case, and more - are you trying to say this does not happen in the pristine Med or vicinities? What are you trying to say behind your insinuations about this part of the world, please, that all our legal system and investigative system and navy and coastguard are what, please come out and say it, or hold your peace. Days have changed, and as I said in the first response to you, get used to it, Impero Italiano is over. Your Regia Marina is better advised to stay where it's home is, and if it wants to come to Indian waters, then it is advised to seek prior permission, not come hiding behind Italian flag ships and claiming "diplomatic immunity".
I could go on, but will request you to please excuse me for now. This is becoming repetitive.
I don't understand why now you speak about the Italian-Greek war. I was not referring at all to it, and I condemn harshly the invasion of Greece of 1941 by the criminal fascist dictatorship.
And again you speak about a lot of thing that have nothing to do with the facts.
Thank you for your kind question. The Italian authorities say that the attack took place some 33 nautical miles from the shore. They claim that they have satellite trackings to prove it, and they are very formal on this. I would not call 33 nm "near to the shores", if Italian authorities are right, of course. As far as arm smuggling or illegal loading / unloading, I highly doubt that this would happen under the surveillance of the Batallion San Marco soldiers, unless you believe in some gigantic plot.
Clever observation, so there's a possibility that our soldiers didn't shoot at the fishermen after all, as they are claiming. The distance from shore of the attack to the Enrica Lexie is the key here, as well as the autopsy of the bodies and the ballistic evidence. If you can connect the spent bullets to the San Marco soldiers' rifles (caliber, type, distinctive weapons fingerprints), you're done. Pity is that this elementary proof is currently neglected by your police.
I'm not informed of any runaway efforts, on the contrary the press here keeps saying that the Italian ship entered by her will in the Kochi port, upon request of the Indian authorities. This is what newspapers say here, but you can correct me if I'm wrong. And again, IF the records were intentionally deleted, I will start to suspect that they wanted to hide something. But again, this has to be proven in a court, for the time being it is only a hearsay, or a police allegation.
Indian Navy & Coast Guard were involved in chasing Enrica Lexie. VDR recording were deleted for the 2 hours time duration in which the crime had happened. Its intention of the Enrica lexie to hide something, may be more serious than cold blood murder of 2 fishermen.
1/ the Italian ship declared openly having been attacked by pirates , when called on the R/Tt by the Indian police. They did not hide anything.
2/ The Enrica Lexie was attracted with a trick in the Kochi port by the Indian police, who simulated that they detained a fishing boat catch with weapons and looked for "witnesses". The ship went to port without problems and didn't try to escape.
3/ The pirate attack occurred in international waters, according to the Italian captain. A judge hopefully will decide upon this.
4/ Only 20 bullets were fired on attackers (not on a peaceful fishing boat) by the Italian soldiers. The Indian police declared at first that 60+ bullet holes were found on the fishing boat. Then they changed their version, and the bullet holes became 20, by hazard, as if all of the shots landed on the fishing boat - incredible marksmanship indeed.
5/ A pirate attack was reported in the same area, 2.5 nm away from the original position of the Italian oil tanker at the time of the first attack, few hours later.
6/ The attacked oil tanker, Greek vessel Olympic Flair, arrived in Kochi on Feb 15 and left probably on Feb 16, according to the Kochi port registers (to be verified). The Olympic Flair is currently in the Indian ocean, heading NNW, in front of Mumbai coast.
7/ The Indian police hid the Olympic Flair incident so far, or at least they ignored it
8/ The Indian police refuses to do an autopsy so far, and a ballistic investigation. They want to seize the soldier's weapons before. Very strange indeed ... someone could suspect that they want to identify the caliber in order to fabricate evidences.
9/ Several other vessels (some 250 vessel >300 t) were in the area during the incident
10/ Pirates are present in this area, despite the denials of the Kerala police.
Based on this 10 plain facts only, every honest Indian individual should start questioning their police about their investigation methods, purposes and mobiles. India, world's greatest democracy, should be exemplary in the ruthless search for truth. No other emotional elements should interfere with this task, neither anger for past colonial misfits, nor political considerations, nor history of 70+ years ago, when Indian soldiers where put in front of Indian soldiers, the first by a fascist dictatorship, the second by a colonial power.
I count on malq and the other brilliant people here to quest for truth, not for witch-burning.
I appreciate your answer, and the honest admission that your views are biased by "pent up rage of ages". I hope that truth will emerge and help to bring justice to the families of the fishermen Valentine Jalastine e di Ajeesh Pinku. I hope also that your justice will not want our two soldiers paying for all that ages of rage. If our soldiers are guilty, they will deserve Indian jail. Let me ensure you that we hate any form of racism and nationalism, and I was shocked to find here the same kind of generalizations against a whole population, which is the very root of hate and war.
As far as the accuracy of your sources, our press started to surface a flow of additional information, which put this episode in very a different light. If this information is true, and a large part of it is official, your personal 3 days trial and judgment of our soldiers will be seriously at stake. The facts:
1. There hundreds of ships in the area, and also the twin tanker "Kamome Victoria", and at least three other tankers.
2. The Indian Fishermen didn’t recognize nor report the name of the ship that opened up on them. It’s the police who charged our tanker, and as you say the reputation of police – worldwide – is what it is.
3. The number of bullets fired by our military don’t match with the declaration of your police: 20 bullets fired by Italians against >60 bullets found by Indian police
4. The Italians were not the only ones to fire against pirates: a Greek tanker, the “Olympic Flair", officially reported that they have repelled by gunfire a pirate attack in the ICC-CSS register few hours later and 2.5 miles from the position of the Enrica Lexie. This denies the Indian police statements that no pirates were present in the area.
5. The incident is already politically manipulated by the nationalists of the Bharathya Janata Party, who tried to lynch our soldiers during their transportation to the tribunal. At least one comment in your blog confirms this fact, by alluding to an “Italian waitress” ruling India. I let you to judge if this is not sheer nationalism, racism and political manipulation.
6. The presence of pirates, even if denied by tyour authorities, is confirmed, and this threat to seamen lives and properties justifies the protection by soldiers or mercenaries.
7. Until India will harbour pirates lairs, this kind of incidents will continue to happen. For your information, the last pirates in the Mediterranean were defeted 3 centuries ago, and the ships in our sea don’t need to carry weapons.
These facts alone could completely overturn your point of view, and I’m confident that by your sources you will be able to check them and provide more details. As far as your statements, one single fact among a lot of opinions retains my attention, that is:
“As far as quality of Italian seafaring community is concerned, simple question - why is the VDR data erased and missing, why did the Enrica Lexie "shoot and scoot"?”.
I’m no expert and do not know about the VDR, but our press reports that the Enrica Lexie has been the only one to answer a call of the Indian police for testimony about the pirate attack, and accept to enter in the port by their will. This is no shoot and scoot in my world. The call for witness was just a trick by your police to find the ship who opened fire. Now this doesn’t exclude that another ship gunned the fishermen, and then simply didn’t answer to the Indian police.
My conclusions:
1. There were actually pirates in the area, despite Indian police statements
2. The pirates attacked at least another tanker at the same time and in the same area, the “Olympic Flair”, as recorded in the ICC-CSS registers
3. The “Olympic Flair” opened fire in the area to repel a pirate attack
4. The fishermen didn’t identify the ship who killed their colleagues
5. The Italian ship voluntarily entered in the Indian water to collaborate with police
6. No autopsy or ballistic examination has been ordered by the justice so far
7. No investigation about the Greek tanker incident has been started, and the fact has been unveiled by the free press
Given the above considerations, it’s highly probable that our men will not receive a fair treatment in Kerala. You are not objective, and your police is following an agenda which has nothing to do with justice. I hope that the tribunal and diplomacy will ensure what neither the Indian public opinion nor the police want to concede, that is a fair and honest investigation and the collection of all elements.
Dear Gallus, thank you for your detailed message, grateful.
I worked in a PR company for some time myself, best of breed, and as far as perception management goes, I am not saying anything, but brilliant efforts.
I do think we can do without the insinuations to the investigative capabilities of Indians or others. Days and times have changed, please, and we have to move on.
The OLYMPIC FLAIR that you mention, for example, assuming it is 8913966, was at that period of time reporting positions closer to Port Said in the Med, and is now on her way to Kharg Island in the PG. Unless ofcourse all the information there is also incorrect in which case please enlighten me further.
Vessel's Details
Ship Type: Tanker
Length x Breadth: 0 m X 0 m
Speed recorded (Max / Average): 15.7 / 15.1 knots
Flag: Greece [GR]
Call Sign: SZPL
IMO: 8913966, MMSI: 237580000
Last Position Received
Area: Arabian Sea
Latitude / Longitude: 23.42958° / 64.72632° (Map)
Currently in Port:
Last Known Port: PORT SAID
Info Received: 0d 1h 37min ago
Not Currently in Range
Itineraries History
Voyage Related Info (Last Received)
Draught: 9.3 m
Destination: KHAHG ISLAND
ETA: 2012-02-23 23:59
Info Received: 2012-02-21 06:24 (0d, 4h 33min ago)
+++
Start from there, please? For the rest, if there is BJP, then there is Vatican. If there is a crowd in Kochi, then there is another crowd in Rome. If there is one option about territorial waters and UNCLOS for unarmed merchant ships then there is another option for economic zones and hot pursuit and armed merchantment.
Ships are routinely stopped and checked in the middle of the ocean, in the name of security and anti-terrorism, I do not think Italy should object if we do so.
After all, the history of recent gun running to pirates in Africa, Levant, Med and parts of Asia was written on the golden pages of Italy's largest and most famous shipping company - whose first ship, the PATRICIA L, covered herself with glory when she was brought in under arrest to Bombay harbour in early 1974 - and I was the cadet officer on duty that evening, as also witness to when she escaped a few days later.
There is enough reason here to suspect this ship of much more. Please wait and see, and try to understand why the Italian Government is do desperate to get just this one ship out, rapidly.
I start from there. Please check Cochin's port registrations regarding Olympic Flair on Feb 18th. And watch the ships' position and history on the map, you will easily find that she is steaming away from Southern India.
And check again and again, since the lives of two potential innocents are at stake. Unless lives of Italian soldiers don't count for you, but I'm sure they do. Also snce you are a clever person, I'm sure you will be more interested in the search of truth rather than burning witches. I look for your help about the Olympic Flair, I'm sure that you can access more data than me.
Best regards,
Gallus
PS: I'm no PR, I'm a chemical engineer by education.
1/ It's my education, not my profession.
2/ I'm a citizen, and I have the right to have my educated opinion. I know for sure that you have one too, as malq, Sammy, the protesters out of our soldiers' jail and a lot of other people do. And I don't claim that MY opinion is the truth, I just doubt that YOUR opinion is the truth. Too much emotions in what should be dealt as a simple investigation, with autopsies and ballistic evidence.
Sir - again, this fact has to be proven. If evidence has been intentionally erased, which is not yet demonstrated, I will start to believe that they want to hide something.
Generally speaking, I'm open to proven facts, but I'm very skeptical by nature in front of hearsays or police allegations.
Feb 07(Reuters) - Port conditions of Kochi as of Tuesday
Port summary:
Expected Vessels
----------------
S.NO Vessels name Agent Cargo Load Unload I/E Expected
Tonnes/Units TEU DOA
***************************************
14) Olympic Flair Atlantic Crude oil nil 112,000 nil 15/02
Is it enough, my friend?
My conclusion: a simple citizen here in Europe found enough data in one hour in the Internet to put serious doubts on the seriousness of your police\'s investigation. It speaks volumes.
Thank you, Gallus, and I did some quick checking on the Olympic Flair, too . . as you are aware, in the HRA piracy areas, many ships keep their AIS off so her last position Port Said was 18jan2012 as reported by Suez Canal authorities, and then it appears she was in Cochin with a load at and on 15th of February 2012 at anchorage, just 2.5 miles off, where some robbers tried to board, and were repelled.
Please look at this report from IMB, http://www.icc-ccs.org/piracy-reporting-..., report No 54-12 of this year, mentioned in an earlier mail on this very article, wrt the OLYMPIC FLAIR.
So what are you saying now, all times Indian Standard Time local, that a robbery that took place on OLYMPIC FLAIRat 2220 hrs at Cochin Anchorage on 15th February 2012 and was repelled without firing . . . is linked to a firing that took place the same day at 1630 hours but about 60-70 miles South on the ENRICA LEXIE.
Good attempt to confuse - but if you put it on a map and plot the distances and times, then you get the drift -
1) the Master of the ENRICA LEXIE already admitted that there had been a firing and piracy attempt on his ship at 1700 local.
2) There is huge communication between Enrica Lexie and the offices in Italy and Mumbai on 15th February evening.
3) AND the bodies from the fv St. Antony were ashore in Kollam, which is well South of Kochi, around the same time that the robbery was being attempted in Kochi.
Please see the distance between Kochi and Kollam on the map. Please be aware that the murder of the fishermen, which is the central issue here and not two soldiers in jail, was already out on the grapevine by/on 1800 or so Indian Time on 15th February 2012.
Sorry, Gallus, as of now the OLYMPIC FLAIR does not fly - because the fishing vessel and the bodies were in Kollam BEFORE or around the same time as the robbery attempt at Cochin/Kochi.
OK, we are progressing. I'm glad that you double-checked about the position of Olympic Flair, and convened with my statements about her position. A simple Google search was enough to avoid taking me for a liar or a water-mudder.
Let's clarify one thing: I'm NOT trying to confuse things. All the elements must be taken into account, and the pirate attack against another tanker in the same area few hrs later was NOT reported before, neither in your article, nor in Indian police statements, who actually denied the existence of pirates in the area. You will at least recognize that this is one big hole in your police's story.
Second, we must rely on Olympic Flair statements about the time and circumstances of the attack. Now, you don't want to believe to Italian seamen and Italian soldiers, but you take as an indisputable truth the statements of a Greek captain? Could you please explain me the rationale behind this logical process? Maybe your Occam's razor uses to cut into some facts to exclude them "a priori"?
And even if the declarations of the Olympic Flair's captain are true, what if the pirate ship shot the 2 poor fishermen during the first assault, maybe by mistake? I would not be surprised to discover that the bullets are from a Kalashnikov, or any other weapon used by pirates in Kerala. But the lack of a ballistic test doesn't allow to clarify this point.
Look malq, I still count on your intelligence, you can be one day the man who saved 2 innocent Italian soldiers, who knows ...
International water or territorial water, a crime is a crime, a criminal is a criminal. A murderer is a murderer. If action cannot be taken against a criminal in international water then change the law. A criminal or murderer should be given exemplary punishment. Since the deceased are Indians then law and court will prevail
The article and the comments are really very informative to people like me who dont know much about such matters. The Italians, by their aggressive posturing, are only spoiling the atmosphere instead of helping the cause of justice. All that they have to do is present hard evidence in support of their claims. If they have destroyed the data, that can only draw adverse conclusion.
We Indians have seen too much of bending from our governments in instances such as Bhopal Gas tragedy, the Purulia arms drop, the black money in foreing tax havens. I guess the government will have to do the right thing to earn the respect of the common man.
Don't let you be fooled by quick ready-made "truths" fabricated in few days. Truth is best left to judges, not to bloggers or policemen.
Be factual, logical, and skeptical, this only will allow you to avoid manipulation by whomever.
2) As far as reputation of police is concerned, I have no comment on the subject, because the capabilities and actions of police are known in Italy as well as in India.
3) As far as autopsy is concerned, sure the report will come, but please appreciate one thing - it apears that on one side, the Italians do not recognise the position of the Indian law on this issue. On the other side it appears that the Italians want the protection of certain parts of Indan law on this subject. Please make up your minds.
4) NATO Shield, EUNAVFOR, Oceans Against Piracy and other such initiatives - we are aware of them. But none of them pertain to sending armed merchant ships without proper authorisations into the territorial waters of another country. Please follow the route of the mt Enrica Lexie from Malacca Straits towards Fujairah and then Egypt and understand this.
5) As far as our elections are concerned, there are no elections in Kerala, and in any case what has India being a vibrant democracy got to do with things please?
6) Roberto - you speak about "rules of engagement", as though we are in a period of history which has long gone. I think you have to understand one thing - colonial days are over, the old colonial powers no longer have the authority to go to some other part of the world and showing their guns.
I too have Italian and European friends - should India or Somalia or Ethiopia send soldiers or mercenaries on merchant ships to tax havens where money stolen from our countries is parked, including those in/near Italy, to shoot at fishing boats which come near us, how would it feel in Naples, have you thought please?
Kindly have some rational views too. In case you find my views and language too strong, then please consider - this is the pent up rage of ages, and the days of slavery are over, when people from colonial powers could tell us what to think say or do.
The law is the law, face it, the ship was too close to Indian shore. Facts will come out.
And as for my reportage, most certainly I have my sources. Sure, spin doctors will not invent alternate theories, that is also part of the game.
As far as quality of Italian seafaring community is concerned, simple question - why is the VDR data erased and missing, why did the Enrica Lexie "shoot and scoot"?
First of all I express my condoleances for the deaths of the fishermen. I hope that the responsibles will be identified and judged properly. Secondly, I've perused your article and most of the comments, and I'm shocked at all the anti-Italian prejudices and ready-made justice that pervade them. You seem to be sure about the crime, the guilty and also the mobiles, which of course are "racism", "arrogance" and "frustration for the loss of colonial power in this part of the world". You didn't even hesitate to make parallels with the Concordia shipwreck, which has strictly nothing to do with this case, apparently in an effort to undermine the reputation of the whole Italian seamen, possibly going back until Cristoforo Colombo. After this reading I'm honestly very worried about the lack of a balanced judgement for my country-fellows in your country, if your justice resembles even by far yourself and your strong prejudices. Indedd, you seem to be sure about a lot of facts which are better left to a court to be decided upon. Maybe you should try and apply a key principle of human rights: a person is innocent until a court rules otherwhise. But your prejudice and reverse racism are by all evidence working against your intelligence and humanity. Let me doubt also about the police reliability: I have Indian friends, and they told me several times me that your police uses to shoot poor people arbitrarily, and then issue false charges on them. Maybe they were lying, even if I can't imagine the reason to do so, but honestly there is ground to worry. A last remark - the arrested men are highly trained soldiers of the Italian Navy, not mercenaries. And a question: is it true that the police refused to do an autopsy and a ballistic test? If so, my worries gain new ground.
Thank you for writing in and in all politeness, I would like to respond as under:-
# There is no "reverse racism" here. As far as many of us are concerned, having been around the world a bit, racism is always one way, overwhelmingly. In the reverse direction, when ex-slaves like us stand up and take a position, then that is not reverse racism - that is justice delayed, but justice all the same. I have met enough people who have whined "reverse racism" to not fall for that one anymore.
# The principle I use here is along the time tested and honoured one, used even in the Italian legal system, of lex parsimoniae. Why should we not be entitled to use it, please?
# There is over-whelming evidence available, there is enough evidence to suggest that the Italian ship destroyed evidence and also did not stay back to report or assist till it was caught, we have a Navy and Coast Guard which are way above politics and local interference, there are fundamentals of hot pursuit, there are realities of territorial rights and demands and most of all there are simple truths.
Frankly, something that could have been resolved by an open admission of an error in judgement, has snow-balled into a major issue due to the basic arrogance that we see unfolding in front of our eyes. Worse colateral damage has occured, and will occur, but this episode has been marked by some sort of colonial attitude on the part of the Italians which is simply not acceptable any more in India.
Finer points of law on "territorial waters" are not closed envelopes, there are ample avenues open for Nations to take steps if other Armies come to their front yard and engage in a turkey shoot, and that is what is playing out right now. The rules are the same for all of us now, regardless of remarks by anybody on racism or otherwise, so please get used to it.
I would like to suggest you take a look at this photo:-
UN Resolutions are very good for debates. Reality is that nobody can come to my country and engage in a turkey shoot, killing the Indians is not a game played by the Pilgrims any more. Please move on and join the real world.
Thank you for your kind answer.
I regret to agree with you about racism, it is overwhelmingly in one direction. I am very sensitive to this subject. Shame on us, even if we did encouraging progress in this field. But I was shocked by the sheer nationalism of the sentences of some posters, and by the general atmosphere of national revenge against century of foreign dominations. Someone spoke about “an Italian waitress ruling India”, another re-exhumed the battle of El Alamein of 70 years ago. I was prepared to hear about Capt. Schettino used to epitomize an entire population, we Italians are used to this kind of generalizations (racism?), but mentioning as a breaking news the traces of cocaine in Schettino’s hair, which according to the forensic are explained by “the touch of hair by of someone who consumed cocaine” isn’t really an example of impartiality.
1/ The lex parsimoniae, or Occam’s razor, is sometimes very misleading. It is a Medieval system, of the times when we used to burn witches on the basis of this very principle. Contrary to what you believe, we do not use it in our courts, where the “innocent until you demonstrate the guiltiness” is our basic rule, and the evidence is formed during trial – not before. The Occam’s razor is particularly ineffective when only part of the facts is known, as it is the case here. No autopsy, no ballistic test, no acknowledgement that pirates were active in the area, no investigation on the Greek oil tanker incident. So no, you are not entitled to use it. Unless you want to burn witches.
2/ “There is over-whelming evidence available”
Our press tells a different story. All of the press, including opposition press. And again, evidence is formed during the trial, not before. It’s a basic rule of modern justice. What you call evidence is your take on certain information, and I have my take as well. Luckily we are not judges.
3/ “Basic arrogance, colonial attitude”
I don’t know your impression there, here the press and the authorities are treating the issue with a very prudent and responsible approach. If there is arrogance, I apologise for it, but all in all there is a high respect for the Indian people here in Italy.
4/ “The rules are the same for all of us now, regardless of remarks by anybody on racism or otherwise, so please get used to it”
Same for everyone. Including the respect of International treaties, which will be judged by International Courts. Italy will accept the ruling of the International Tribunal of the UN, should the case arrive up there.
5/ Your link to a photo: frankly I cannot understand the reason for posting a picture whose caption is “An Italian soldier surrenders to a Jawan, during Operation Crusader, on 08 December 1941”. Maybe you will be so kind to explain me the relation between the Desert War, 71 years ago, the surrender of an Italian soldier to a Jawan soldier, and today’s world and events.
5/ “UN Resolutions are very good for debates. Reality is that nobody can come to my country and engage in a turkey shoot, killing the Indians is not a game played by the Pilgrims any more. Please move on and join the real world”
You are right, but only if our soldiers actually killed the fishermen, and only if they did it on purpose. And as a side note, your government should really do something to defeat piracy in India, it’s real world also I know but it hurts lives and properties.
# It reminds Indians that 70 years ago, taking a prisoner was done with dignity on both sides, if you will notice, the prisoner walks out with his hands up and the one who accepts the surrender does not point his gun at him. Maybe later the same evening they also share stories about home in languages they do not understand. I have heard about these things.
Today, the soldier surrendering is doing so with arrogance while the one taking charge is doing so with great ceremony, both are wrong. A sub-Inspector or "jawan" should have gone on board, and accepted a simple surrender by show of hands and deposit of side-arms, but instead it has become Nation vs Nation.
Sad but true.
# Piracy is not only an India problem, even though we are the closest large country, it is clearly understood and known where the pirates get their arms and ammo and support from. This is a subject I know a wee bit about so let it be there - but certainly, the role of the Italians is well understood in these waters.
# Oh yes, lex parsimonae and all the rest of it, sadly I can not reveal the name of the Indian master who spent a year in a dark damp and wet Italian jail because the previous ship of his company had incorrect documentation, but this business of criminalisation of seafarers and now soldiers - it has been going on.
This time it makes the headlines because the affected are from a First world country?
# What is so wrong with Indian legal system handling the issue of death of Indians on an Indian fishing vessel in Indian waters please? Please, I hope the Italians get used to it.
For the rest, yes, I await the Italian media's response on the Olympic Flair, have just seen the Il Tempo report on it.
Re. the photo, I see now your idea, but I'm afraid that you are swimming in dangerous water. It happens that I'm passionate about history of the WWII. Italian prisoners were sometimes killed by their English captors, either immediately after capture, or in the prison camps by famine and lack of medical care (check out the history of the Indian ones, close to Himalaya), or during transportation. Dignity was in the press pictures, illegal killings (on both sides, be sure) were hidden. An uncle of mine, taken prisoner during the Tobruk battle, died on the sinking of the transport when the guards closed the doors to stop them from fleeing out. Check out the RMS Laconia sad story (not the English official one, of course): 1500 Italian prisoners killed, either shot by the English and Polish guards, or their hands cut by axe to let them drowning, or simply closed in the holds of the sinking ship. I don't blame the whole English people for that crime, of course.
But please don't tell me the story of the good soldiers on one side, and of the arrogant soldiers on the other. By the way I haven't seen any arrogance on the faces of our two San Marco marines when arrested by your police (illegally by the way, according to our diplomatics).
Back to the subject:
I'm sorry about the Indian master jailed in Italy, the press here told his story IIRC, but the wrongdoings of Italian justice - well known in Italy, have nothing to do with these facts.
I don't know anything about the role of Italians in Indian piracy, but again this has nothing to do with the Enrica Lexie.
So, when there will be new, hard facts, and possibly all of them, we can speak again of this story.
Dear Gallus, one last time, please let me try to explain things to you and all in copy.
1) There is no doubt that the Enrica Lexie entered the Indian EEZ as soon as she left the Malacca Straits. She was still very much there till the St Antony incident took place.
2) At that juncture, the various provisions of the Maritime Zones Act of India 1976 become applicable to all ships inside or in transit the Indian EEZ. Every Master, owner, operator and agent knows this. And this info is there in the compulsory books and manuals carried onboard.
3) This Act makes it obligatory for Merchant Ships to provide due notification on arms weapons ammunition security guards carried onboard, if any, to the authorities, not only for the EEZ but also for the ISRR (Indian Search & Rescue Region).
4) Let me quote: "All merchant vessels transitting through Indian EEZ and carrying armed guards are required to provide the information contained under para . . . .to the Indian Coast Guard and Indian Navy." Which is:- Names/addresses/details including passport details and STCW qualifications of the armed personnel. Number of and details of fire-arms and ammunition. Details of firearm licences issued by the jurisdictional national administration.
5) Did the Enrica Lexie do so? Please find out. I know the answer, you please let me know from your sources.
6) Do other ships do so? Certainly the Olympic Flair did so.
I hope this gives you some food for thought when I talk about the arrogant attitude of the mercenaries onboard. On a daily basis, the Indian CG and Indian Navy deal with ships, owners of different flags, and appear to have few if any problems in getting these details.
Why, then, would the Italian flag Enrica Lexie think she was above all this?
And have you any idea about the background of the larger picture, when I talk about gun-running in the High Risk Areas, please?
I wait for your response, before providing some more, so keep at it please.
5/ "Did the Erica Lexie declare weapons?"
I don't know, I have no other sources than the press and the Internet, alas. If they didn't, what is the usual punishment? Jail for the captain? Fines? For sure the 2 soldiers are not guilty of this infringement, afaik the captain is, as you will confirm me. I'm just curious.
6/" Do other ships do so? Olympic Flair did."
Interesting, so we know for sure that they carried weapons. Maybe while they're close to India you can ask them to comeback to the Kochi port for investigations, as your police did for the Enrica Lexie.
Dear Gallus and Malq,
Its a very good debate. I just want to add a titbit... as per the press from Italy and India is concerned.... Looking through your own eyes is always better than hearsay. I wonder, if the press from Italy have so wide visions that they can see things from Indian shores so clearly.
I want to clarify one thing: I don't pretend to hold the truth, on the contrary of my friend malq. I'm exactly afraid of people collecting evidences, indicting trials and issuing sentences by their own. Truth must be established in a court by independent judges, not by vigilantes or bloggers, or protesters moved by political reasons.
There are enough facts to undermine the credibility of Indian's police investigation so far - and of the article above, by the way; see above and you will find a few, found by your faithful servant Gallus - a simple citizen with Internet access.
Gallus,
1. Its good that you have Indian friends. Going by their stories and your "doubts", by now, those two marines must have been shot dead by police.
2. Courts pronounce verdict "Guilty as charged" after the charges are framed and the judge hears the prosecution and defense.
3. There are some questions which are hard to answer - a) who ordered the shooting?
- b) why the data has been erased?
- c) why the shoot and scoot?
- d) why no open call on Ch.16?
- e) why no evasive maneuvers if indeed there was a threat of piracy?
- f) why the presence of arms and ammunition not disclosed to Indian authorities when entering Indian waters?
The "prejudice" and "reverse racism" is in your mind my friend. We are just calling for an honest inquiry. Is it too much to ask??
Regds
Sammy
Thank you for your kind message. I have some Indian friends and a lot of Indian colleagues, and I’m currently working with many of them on an important project. I always thought that Indian culture and menthality is close to the Italian one. Same proud for the good work, same professionalism, same sense of honour to meet engagements. I enjoy coming to India, and I enjoy your great food as well.
I thank you for your questions, Iwill try and answer them:
1/ Police unfortunately can shoot poor obscure people without any risks, it would be a lot more risky for them to kill an foreign soldier, wouldn’t it be? Also, if there is a plot – and I don’t believe there’s one – just for sake of the argument, they are much more valuable during a long trial, aren’t they?
Courts pronounce “guilty”, but here it has already been done long before the trial. Funny, isn’it?
2/ Who ordered the shooting? There are strict engagement rules for our military. Whether they followed them or not, a fair trial will clarify that.
3/ Why the data has been erased? According to our press, the data HAS NOT been erased. I don’t know personally. It is just another police statement, with the same value of the absence of pirates in the area. I hope you appreciate the difference between evidence and a statement by the police.
4/ Why the shoot and scoot? False. They didn’t escape nor hide the facts; the Italian ship entered the Kochi port upon a simple invitation by your police, for “witness” purpose – a dirty trick by the way.
5/ Why no open call on Ch.16? If true (again, a court will decide on this), this alone is not an evidence of culpability, but rather a misuse of procedures.
6/ Why no evasive manoeuvres if indeed there was a threat of piracy? I’m no expert, but a 100k ton tanker is not a motorboat.
7/ why the presence of arms and ammunition not disclosed to Indian authorities when entering Indian waters? Again a fact that has to be evaluated by a court.
Regarding “prejudice” and “reverse racism”, I’m sure that you don’t abide to them, but I suggest you to read all of the posts below, until you will find something about an “Italian waitress ruling India”, and few other statements of the kind.
The truth though is far from being revealed... the two soldiers are soldiers of the Italian Army, not mercenaries, placed on board by the Italian Minister of Defense. Also, it looks like the boat was 33 miles away from the cost, so in international waters. No autopsy has been conducted on the bodies to verify bullets and matching with the italian weapons. Also it looks like there where pirates boats in the area and videos and photos seem to prove that a different boat from the St. Antony was engaged by the Italian Soldiers. Let's just wait.
The truth will be revealed for sure. Doesn't matter if the VDR and AIS data have been erased (most probably in the interest of revealing the truth), the cellphone records will establish the position of the vessel. We do not want any innocent to be punished, but a guilty should not go free. In any civilized country law takes it own course and people are arrested, charges pressed and court decides whether they are guilty or not. Indian authorities are doing the same. Please do share with us if you have the "revealed truth."
Dear Roberto, thank you for writing in, and luckily for us, just like the Italian Irredentism movement, you are certainly entitled to your opinion too.
As far as the incident taking place 33 miles away is concerned, certainly the mt Enrica Lexie would have the data records to prove this - alas, it seems they have been deleted!
Likewise, the VDR onboard is also deleted!
Luckily, in this day and age, satellite data is available to all.
At the end of the day, fact remains - the Italian Ambassador did make some statements on the 16th of February 2012 too.
Dear Malq,
I don't understand your comment about the Italian Irredentism movement.
The last thing I want is a discussion between goods and bads... actually it was very interesting to read the article as it reports facts and opinions that are very different from those reported from Italian media... are they right? are they wrong? what it is sure is that none of us were on that boat. I would also reply to e sylva... no the boat was not a military craft... nevertheless she belongs to the Italian Commercial Fleet and has an Italian flag; for this reason, Soldiers of the Italian Army has been boarded in order to protect ships in the Indian and the Red Sea. The article states that the Indian Navy boarded the boat after the shooting, we know that the Enrica Lexia indeed went in to the harbor but its self. Nevertheless, it does not matter. What everybody is wondering is how it is possible that two italian soldiers were arrested. Now you are claiming that they were mercenaries... I guess more things need to be discovered... thank you for the polite answer though.
a) The mt ENRICA LEXIE happens to have 19 Indian national crew members onboard who serve under Indian Government implemented terms and conditions on this ship. There is certainly data from them, too, in addition to the electronic data available. In addition, I understand that the officers and crew of the ship issued a joint statement that the armed mercenaries onboard acted on their own, I may be mistaken ofcourse.
b) The mt ENRICA LEXIE entered Indian waters when she left Malacca Straits for Arabian Sea. At that juncture, she did not report the presence of armed soldiers onboard, to the Indian authorities, as she is obliged to. She lost all rights of innocent passage as a merchant ship at that juncture. UNCLOS is debatable after that.
c) Why should everybody in Italy wonder why two Italian soldiers or mercenaries were arrested by Indians? If somebody is suspected of murder, they shall be arrested, as per the law of the land where the murder took place. It would not matter if they were Italian, Indian or any other Nationality. How and why should Italians get exemption in this day and age please?
d) The term "mercenary" is often used to describe forces like the Gurkhas and the French Foreign Legion and similar. It has been used for elements of this battalion in the past, too, to my knowledge. In addition, since it does appear as though the armed people onboard were getting extra allowances, including success based allowancs, the term fits as follows:- "The 1977 Protocol I, additional to the Geneva Conventions of 1949 defines a mercenary as being "motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party".
I hope that helps answer the questions of most of the peace loving people of Italy, who I am sure would not want to be party to any more aggressive behaviour abroad by their soldiers, since that only gives a bad name to the great country Italy.
A) The Enrica Lexie is an Italian Boat; as such I don't know the rules for Indian Crew on board; either I don't see why an approved military escort team should wait for orders from a commercial commander; rules of engagement are very clear.
B) The Maro' (Italian Marines) on board of the ship are part of the Ocean Shield Operation by NATO; I don't think they are supposed to be reported to anybody
C) As Italian Marines they are cover by International Immunity, as any other soldiers (including indians) in peace keeping operations like Ocean Shield.
D) Mercenary is a term totally out of place, as the Italian Marines on board were authorized to be on board
Indeed, we are reading that all the issue is due to the fact that there are going to be elections in that area soon, so this is just a way of distract the public opinion from the real problems of the area and to go against Gandhi, of Italian heritage.
I'm also reading that the indian police refuses to perform autopsy on the bodies.
An answer to this points would be greatly appreciated.
Hey Roberto so the soldiers were placed on board by the Minister of Defence Italy.So the vessel was not a Merchant ship but a military craft.Good.
Next the Captain and the Duty officers on the bridge have stated they had not given the orders to fire and on those grounds are trying to get off the hook. So who gave the orders to shoot- the Ministry od Defence,Italy.
So now the ship was 33 miles away from the coast when the incident took place- how come the plotting shows between 8 and 14 nautical miles from the coast. Well well well lets see how she got there.
Where are the Italian weapons- hidden away; they should have been handed over for ballistic testing to match with the numerous bullets found on the fishing boat- you aware there are more than a dozen bullets on the fishing boat.
You do not worry about autopsy- buried bodies can always be exhumed.And the type of bullets will be found.
It is the height of imagination to say that there were pirate boats in the area, the soldiers shot at the pirate boats but the dead bodies were on the St Antony fishing boat and the bullets on the boat were from someone else.
I suggest you get on the 3rd chapter of this episode by the same writer to be on top of latest developments.
b) Another input tells me that the crew of the ship, the Italians and the Indians, together, have made it clear to the Indian authorities that they did not have anything to do with the Marcos Battalion mercenaries shooting off their own volition.
It does appear as though this was pure racial arrogance by armed mercenaries onboard this ship - we can not call them soldiers.
Which still does not explain why the ship did a shoot and scoot . . .
Your reply to Sav in para b) if it is true that neither the Italian crew or the Indian crew did not have anything to do with the "mercenaries shooting off by their own volition" then this tanker was not under control of the Captain as regard persons on board his vessel. Joke of the year for merchant shipping men like you and me.
And that too on a 100,000 plus oil tanker in ballast- tankers are vessels that have the most stringent rules n regulations.
It brings us to the next question, after the shooting.
Who instructed the Captain to leave the scene of incident that required the ship to be chased down and brought back to the Kochi anchorage? The mercenaries took the decision?
If there has been direlection of duty by the Captain then he stands responsible and so do the Owners- never mind who they are.
Captains are put in jail, in Italy too, for much more minor reasons like oil pollution, garbage thrown overboard, etc.
Is this a cover-up for reasons other than what meets the eye.
If you look up the United Nations Convention on laws of the Seas (UNCLOS) you will notice that there is a region called Contiguous Zone (which may extend no more than 24 nautical miles from the shore baseline). If a crime has been committed in the Contiguous Zone or territorial waters, the coastal state has the right to to capture & prosecute a foreign vessel. Furthermore in the high seas & EEZ, the coastal state has the right of hot pursuit, arrest & prosecution (provided certain conditions are met) of a foreign vessel, if one of the coastal state's vessel has been attacked.
The captain who must have issued orders to fire, the personnel who were on the Bridge when the shooting took place and the shooters are all suspects/ accessories to the crime and must be detained by the coastal state india in this case
E Sylva, thank you for your response, and yes, the UNCLOS makes many valid points. HOWEVER, in this case the ENRICA LEXIE may not really be entitled to the complete protection of the UNCLOS because it was an armed merchantman which had already transitted through Indian territorial waters in Andamans as well as Kerala coast without disclosure.
In addition, the issue of shoot and scoot as well as the flag of the vessel attacked come into play.
What about the case of Indian Capt Glenn Aroza whose vessel was called back to taiwanese waters on an alleged incident 80 kms off the taiwan coast.
He was held together with the duty officer for over 2 years on manslaughter charges which could never be proved.
Tt was a Singapore flagged vessel owned by one of the largest japanese trading houses.
Meanwhile, as days pass without any cogent action being taken on the ENRICA LEXIE case, and as evidence either vanishes, withers or is tampered with, here's some news about cocaine traces on another Italian Captain of another Italian ship making the headlines for all the wrong reasons:-
I really don't know what our DGS and MMD doing in this case. I remember two of our officers were arrested and had to go inhuman treatment on the mere suspicion. Here we have a confirmed murder but our govt. agencies are dragging feet.
Dear Sammy, thank you for writing in, and yes, especially with 19 Indians out of the complement of 24+6, the DGS & MMD could have been more proactive. Especially since the Indians are employed under Indian Government terms and conditions - but said employment is for seaworthy merchant ships, not this sort of scourge.
Incidentally, I am told that DGS/MMD was aware of this by/on 1715hrs on Wednesday 15th of February 2012, and so could have notched things up.
VM,
Today in TOI I read an article: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india...
Needless to mention it is very disappointing. I do hope some good senses prevail and the culprits are brought to justice by our officials. I do agree that waters off Kochi are congested because of fishing boats but its not a reason to shoot. What crap are they peddling that a fishing boat that can do max 8 knots was chasing a tanker doing speed in excess of 14 knots.
Dear Sammy - yes, I've been following the media reportage as well as the VVIP treatment being given to the Italian officers and mercenaries on the ENRICA LEXIE at Cochin. Both of which appear to be influenced by our continued awe of the colonial remnants.
In this case, it has to be repeated again and again - the fishing boat was and is Indian jurisdiction anywhere in the world, the Italian ship had no right under any law UNCLOS or otherwise to shoot and scoot without reporting and most of all, the presence of armed mercenaries onboard a merchant ship changes all rules of innocent passage.
These simple facts are not getting through to our own media, who amplify matters, sadly.
Adding to my comments below, I do think that some of the worst 'chalta hai' hypotheses may unfortunately ring true.
I wonder if anyone has questioned the Indian government as follows:
- Let us admit the overwhelming necessity about keeping 'excellent' relationships with Italy, a country whose economy is nearly as viable as Greece, which has openly opposed our P-5 membership in the UN, and been complicit in Chinese wiretapping of our Embassy in Rome.
- Let us also leave the benefit of doubt as far as legal jurisdiction goes, esp. as far as the Italian military personnel on board the Enrica are concerned. This is an emotive subject in Italy, given that in 1998, a US E-A6B military aircraft severed the cables atop a gondola in an Italian ski resort, killing 20, but the Americans insisted on the immunity of their personnel, and forced the Italians to accept.
- WHY HAVE THE WEAPONS OF THE ITALIANS NOT BEEN SEIZED, IF NECESSARY, BY FORCE ? This is, literally, the only smoking gun which could connect the bullets which killed the Indian fishermen with the Italians. If this is not the case, then everyone can go home in peace. If it is, the situation changes, especially in terms of the tendentious theory doing the rounds in Italy that there were two separate incidents, and that the Indian fishermen may have been shot by Indian military personnel in the 'other' incident.
- Finally, where is His Holiness PC Chidambaram. There should also be a high-level Home Ministry angle here, to counterbalance the international law implications of the case, just in case the bullets were fired from aboard Enrica ?
- In the Italian cable car accident, the pilot and navigator of the plane were put on trial in the United States and found not guilty of involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide. Later, however, they were found guilty of obstruction of justice and conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman for having destroyed a videotape recorded from the plane;
- The Americans in the Italian cable car were covered by NATO immunity, as an Italian court ruled.
- What similar treat governs India-Italy relations ? And what will we do to guard against the fact that these officers and gentlemen aboard Enrika Lexie are not found to have lied after they are safely home. Like Indians, Italians have short memories.
- On a small aside, the last time the San Marcos battalion encountered India was in Tobruk, in World War II. Those interested in knowing what happened can Google San Marcos + Indian 4th Infantry Division.
- Just in case anyone is curious, I do run a security firm, often carry an assault rifle, and know that such laissez faire approaches are part and parcel of the job profiles of many people in the business, especially when it concerns Third World subjects and their spineless governments.
malq3 months ago in reply to Ashutosh Sheshabalaya
Dear Ashutosh, thanks for writing in, and while I thank you for these nuggets (and have enjoyed reading the first part of your bike ride across Europe . . .) it is my take that the bigger issue here is security of seafarers of all sorts against criminalisation and piracy - and the resultant effects on the global economy.
1) As far as this incident is concerned, a sub-Inspector of Police accompanied by an Immigration and Customs team would have sufficed, anything more becomes obstruction of law/justice. India has failed on that, miserably, and what else is new.
2) "Freedom of the Seas" as per UNCLOS and jurisdiction - all that is fine, but there is also something called "contiguous zone" of 24 miles, and also the simple fact that the fv St. Antony is Indian territory on which a crime has been committed, which is what the italians don't have a leg to stand on.
As far as the Enrica Lexie is concerned, it is quite apparent to many that (a) the chain of command failed or was simply not defined between the Masters (there were two of them, both Italians, on board), the watchkeepers (Indians) and the commandos/mercenaries (Italian).
The theory gaining ground in Italy is that there have been two separate incidents, one involving the Italian ship at 16:00 IST, and another unidentified one involving two pirate boats at 21:50, further north, which was reported to the IMO (see my first post No. 054-12).
La Stampa (a respected daily) also states that the Indian fishermen may have been killed in cross-fire (possibly by Indian security forces) in the second action. Also, it asserts that the people on the Italian vessel are in India's illegal custody and that the (military) shooters are an organ of the Italian State with absolute immunity from legal process by foreign authorities, and (controversially) no link to the Master of the ship.
malq3 months ago in reply to Ashutosh Sheshabalaya
Further above by Ashutosh, here's 54-12 at IMB/Piracy, for an incident of robbery at Cochin anchorage, whilst the St.Antony was at Kollam well before this time with the dead sailors onboard.
(1650 UTC = 2220 IST local time)
054-12 15.02.2012: 1650 UTC: Posn: 09:57N – 076:02E, Around 2.5 nm South of SPM, Cochin Anchorage, India.
About 20 robbers in two boats approached an anchored tanker and attempted to board her. The lookout crew noticed the robbers, raised the alarm and crew mustered. The robbers aborted the attack upon seeing the crew alertness and moved away.
malq3 months ago in reply to Ashutosh Sheshabalaya
Thank you for writing in.
1) Grapevine buzz on this subject was already chattering at 1715-1730 IST on Wednesday 15th of February 2012. The Italian Ambassador also confirmed that an attack had taken place and that the ship came into Kochi voluntarily. Now we can expect all sorts of post-facto theories, but fact remains, let the investigation proceed. How can it be illegaly detained if she came in voluntarily?
2) The military shooters/soldiers have absolute immunity in case of declared war or similar - currently none such available to them. In addition, UNCLOS defines "innocent passage" very clearly, and armed soldiers on board render this "innocent passage" void.
3) There are certainly multiple laws for and against every aspect of this case. However, and I quote the Government of India, MHA, here:- "However, Home Secretary RK Singh said, "The law is very clear. The vessel, in which the fishermen were travelling, was an Indian vessel; therefore action will be taken as per Indian law." http://ibnlive.in.com/news/fishermen-kil...
4) There are 19 Indian seafarers onboard, working on Indian documents (CDC, Passport, certificates, agreements, et al). The duty watchkeeper was an Indian.
5) As far as illegal custody is concerned, the shoot and scoot action of the ship places it squarely into, amongst other things, hot pursuit as well as closest port state jurisdictions.
Deep issues, all, but where Ochams Razor as a legal tool is applied, this investigation needs to be carried out by and in India.
Got some more inputs and information rolling in, up soon, including some details of communications from/to ship.
Once again, Mr. Malik has done great service towards getting justice for the poor, unarmed fishermen of our country. I would like more countrymen to know exactly what happened and would likr Mr. Malik's permission to post this article on other websites so that more and more fellow citizens know what is going on.
Thank you for your kind words, and in view of the standard terms here, would suggest/request you please place a link to this article on the other websites please?
rgds/VM
""No contents of Moneylife.in website or Moneylife Magazine shall be reproduced without prior permissions from the authors of
Moneylife.in website and/or publisher of Moneylife Magazine.""
There is talk that the ship itself will not be detained and will be released soon, under pressure from the Italian Government and Italian companies involved, despite a certain lack of co-operation from the Italian officers and mercenaries onboard. The authorities need to ensure that all data recorders are recovered in original and untampered condtion before letting the ship go, otherwise a case of tampering and destruction of evidence needs to be made out, and more.
Also, we must not forget - the scene of the crime, the fishing vessel St. Antony, is Indian territory flying the Indian flag. Jurisdiction of India is supreme in this case, regardless of location of the incident, and the accused persons as well as vessel need to be held for the tenure of the investigation.
a) Request the shipping and fishermen unions in Mumbai to pay a visit to Scorpio Ship Management in Hiranandani and give them their compliments. Address is Scorpio Marine Management Pvt Ltd. 801 - Alpha - Main St. - Hiranandani Business Park - Powai, Mumbai 400 076 info.india@scorpiogroup.net - Tel +91 22 6150 4300 - Fax +91 22 6150 4350 and contact persons are Capt. Cooper, Punia and Tarun Kumar.
2) Pass this article to the fishermen's and seafarer's unions in Kerala and tell them to ensure that the local police do not release the vessel unless all evidence and untampered VDRs are collected to their satisfaction.
3) Contact DG Shipping and let them know that you are watching this carefully and will not let a cover-up happen as always happens.
Indian government will do soft pedelling as the ship is from Italy and the seafarers killed are from Tamil Nadu. The ulterior motive may be, the killing is financed by Srilanka as India has given blanket permission to Srilanka to kill Indian fishermen.
My last thoughts on this. Enrica Lexie's owners and operators are the same entities (Italy's Dolphin Tanker srl, and D’Amato Fratelli Spa) whose vessel Savina Caylyn, was snatched by pirates in February 2011. Its crew was released in December after payment of a 10 million Euro ransom.
So, in a best case scenario, rookie guards (under a lax master - no quips about Costa Concordia) panicked and over-reacted. Forensics should be able to determine how many shots hit the Indian fishing boat, and at what distance.
In a worst case, the incident would highlight the life is cheap everywhere outside the West scenario - re. ongoing comments in the Italian media about the small compensation paid.
The extra-territorial legal issues are major, in both cases. Serving Italian soldiers are seconded to Italian-flagged ships under a recent law. However, they are paid by the shipowners. So who is culpable ? And who is liable ? How should the Indian government ensure that this NEVER happens again. Otherwise, I feel tempted to proceed with a PIL urging that we disband our Navy and outsource maritime security to the Italians. It will be cost-effective. India did not even make the all-important symbolic show of force in the Maldives, and worse, sent an unescorted landing ship into claimed Chinese waters a few months before that. Now, this turkey shoot by some trigger-happy jerks right next door to the headquaters of Southern Naval Command.
malq3 months ago in reply to Ashutosh Sheshabalaya
The recent history, post WW-2 especially, and present scenario, of Italian controlled shipping in the Indian Ocean economies is not as simple and clear as it looks. Start with, say, Gianluigi Aponte of MSC and his PATRICIA L in 1974 at Bombay and work from there, for example, and you get an idea of things.
That apart, the absolutely arrogant and corrupt attitude of the DG Shipping on this subject, of ensuring that vessels in and around India's economic zone are provided with Indian origin guards incase they do want free passage with armed guards, is another incredible tale of petty intrigue and babudom at its worse. Am going to cover that aspect tomorow.
As for the management of the SAVINA CAYLYN then and now, and the link with the ENRICA LEXIE, that's yet another report.
This episode is increasingly not as cut and dried as it is made out to be, and new facts keep surfacing. It is hoped that the VDR and other data recorders on the ship do not mysteriously get damaged before the authorities get their hands on them.\\
It is the Italian connection!! which needs to be probed separately. GOI and the vassals in power (congressmen Sic!) would as usual try and downplay the role of Italians and they culprits amy do a vanishing act a la Quattrocchi and Anderson. Who knows the PMO may arrange a chartered flight too.
Nothing will happen to the criminals coming from the land of Ottavio Quattrocchi. they will be let off by Indian authorities. the criminal of Bhopal gas tragedy Anderson was allowed to be escaped from India by Congressmen. The same people are sill ruling our nation.
The maritime and govt authorities were probably frightened of madam's imagined anger at the slight to her maika. Let's see how things could play out:
1. GOI will go through the motions of making some noise and lodge protests to placate public opinion, before putting the matter to sleep.
2. Ship co will pay a nominal fine and compensation to the fisherfolk's families. Ship will be released and guards shall fly home smiling and waving to the media.
4. DGS and maritime authorities set up an official enquiry OR (if fishermen are a significant voting bloc) Kerala will set up a judicial commission, to examine the matter in detail and give a report in the next five years or more, when the matter is completely forgotten.
5. Perhaps the Navy & CG will be served a show cause notice for acting too proactively and fast, not in keeping with our laid back ethos?
Further to my comment a short while ago, I must say that the reporters indignation as to why the ship was navigating where she was is perhaps for misplaced reasons. I say this because marine insurers, in response to the reach and spread of the Somali pirates menace, have prescribed strict conditions for routing of vessels in the perceived threat areas of the Arabian sea. Certain of those routes are indeed close to the west coast of India. Thus the Enrica Lexie could have been within its rights to be where she was. But this in no way takes away from her Master and crew being condemned in the strongest possible terms for their inhuman actions and they must feel the full force of the law.
Thank you for writing in, Sanjeev, and on ocean routing influenced by Kidnap & Ransom insurers, I have it on good authority that the suggested distance at this section of the coast is to hug around 30-35 nautical miles off.
This is a huge tanker we are talking about, probably drawing atleast 10 metres in ballast, and this part of the coast has some shallow patches which need to be avoided.
In addition, more importantly - the AIS data from departure Singapore onwards appears to have mysteriously vanished from vesseltracker.com . . . but that's OK too.
What's not OK is that the full force of the Italian Consulate, the P&I and the agents have come to the fore - along with tacit support from the DGS and MMD.
AIS data availability depends on there being a receiver station nearby and who is in a position to upload its received data. Most AIS 'tracker' sites will show a huge 'blank' in the Bay of Bengal and Arabian sea area. See the 'blank' of shipping traffic just a short distance west of Singapore / Sumatra Island's North tip.
Agreed on the black holeof AIS in the Bay of bengal/Arabin Sea, but at the very least, should have seen some from near Colombo/Galle?
Also, the conflict in AIS destination of Fujairah versus declared destination of Egypt has not been cleared by the agents as yet . . . Scorpio Marine Management Pvt Ltd. 801 - Alpha - Main St. - Hiranandani Business Park - Powai, Mumbai 400 076 / / / . . . / / / info.india@scorpiogroup.net - Tel +91 22 6150 4300 - Fax +91 22 6150 4350
The incident is shocking because it should have been so very obvious to anybody who considers himself to be a seafarer that those hapless persons were not pirates. Which pirate would attempt an attack in broad daylight so close to the Indian coast? Prima facie it is a case where 'gora' types feel they can get away with such acts as the victims are just 'poor Indians'.
It is very heartening to learn that at least the Indian Coast Guard and Navy acted regardless of directions from 'higher ups'. Bravo.
The media should now be like a bull terrier and not let the authorities sweep things under the carpet. Indian seafarers must demonstrate they care for all their fellow citizens who earn their living from the sea. They must do this by forming pressure groups to push and prod the government whenever it is found slacking. The facts of the case must be made public. India must also lodge a strong protest with the flag state (Italy), as also at IMO and at international anti-piracy fora.
Great work. Heartened to see at least someone holding out in a serious manner against our chaalta hai attitude.
Surprising how cocky the Italian Ambassador is ? "Norms" were followed, and he is making a lot out of the "voluntary" return of the Italian ship - to one of India's biggest naval bases. [Guess he is taking revenge for Montecassini].
Killing was "unfortunate", echoes Defence Minister Antony.
As I understand it, there may have been a notification to the IMO:
Attack Number 054-12 (if this is the reference, although "20 robbers in two boats") shows the location in Indian waters: 2.5 nm.
Am I correct in assuming that UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) only considers high seas for piracy ?
Then this would follow totally within Indian criminal law.
I do hope the post-mortem establishes time of shooting, and cross checks this against IMO notification, or anything in ship's log. Would then make it clear homicide, with interesting implications as apparently, serving Italian military personnel (seconded from Battaglione San Marco) did the shooting.
IMO categorically says "should also be borne in mind that shooting at suspected pirates may impose a legal risk for the master, shipowner or company, such as collateral damages. In some jurisdictions, killing a national may have unforeseen consequences even for a person who believes he or she has acted in self defence. Also the differing customs or security requirements for the carriage and importation of firearms should be considered, as taking a small handgun into the territory of some countries may be considered an offence."
_________________________
Am surprised our media is not making parallels to Tabar's shooting of that famous Thai mother ship.
No one investigated the murky history of that ship, or rather its owner.
Pity, as usual, we goofed up: Indian Navy should have had a one-liner ready: FISH DO NOT EXPLODE.
malq3 months ago in reply to Ashutosh Sheshabalaya
Thank you for writing in. Yes, BMP3 or BMP4 certainly have a lot to say on the subject, and that is a discussion which will certainly burn the waves on the maritime community channels.
But here I have just one more point to add - just how did anybody onboard a huge tanker in ballast, drawing a freeboard of atleast 10 metres if not more, even imagine that a small boat would be a risk, that people onboard that boat would be able to make their way up, unchallenged, in broad daylight?
Absolutely. I think this was plain murder. Clearly even if the rules of engagement on this subject are vague (e.g Britain has brought in the concept of "extended unit self-defense"), the Italian action, within shouting distance of the Southern Command of the world's fourth largest navy (and HQs of its naval air command), cannot be construed as legal. So far, the Italian wires are totally into self-justification mode, along with wrong references to growing piracy in the Bay of Bengal (sic) and allusions to the compensation paid in India (a small sum in Euros - few understand purchasing power parity). This only goes to flesh out the perception that life is cheap in India. Now all that is required is for GoI to prove that it is impotent.
Was real happy to see an informed counterpoint by Veeresh Malik. Hope the Indian public, armed to the teeth with PILs and RTI for just about everything else, do not let this one go.
Thank you for writing in. While I can easily go into very extensive technical details, the intention has been to try and leave it as simple as possible for non-technical non-seafaring readers, without losing out on intent. This incident is cold-blooded murder, in any language, and needs to be treated as such. The simple fact that the accused have not been brought ashore as yet is revealing, as it is very likely that evidence is being destroyed, while people are on board.
"“It appears that the set procedures [to be adopted by merchant ships on such occasions] were given a go-by, which is completely unacceptable,” Vice-Admiral K.N. Sushil, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Southern Naval Command and Commander-in-Chief (Coastal Defence) of the Southern Zone, told The Hindu.
“If they thought they were being chased by a pirate vessel, they should have carried out evasive manoeuvres to alter the course of the ship, as enunciated by the guidelines. If the skiff was still after them, they would've fired fire a few warning shots well above the bow of the pirate vessel to deter it. Unfortunately, they do not seem to have done any of this,” said the Vice-Admiral.""
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